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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:16 am 
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@stone:

it looks like you are thinking of weight training in a bodybuilding way. then you should use a real split routine with all the specific muscles getting worked more than once. maybe compounds + one isolation exercise.

most of the people in this forum are training for strength and that's why almost nobody of the most active members is doing calf raises on a regular basis. they are just doing the compound exercises and trying to build more strength. you know more strength = more muscle. but you are getting more an athlete's body then. not a body with huuuuuge lateral deltoids or so.

but here are some guys around that can help you with more bodybuilding style routines, maybe robertscott, although he says he is not a bodybuilder :grin:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:28 am 
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ephs wrote:
but here are some guys around that can help you with more bodybuilding style routines, maybe robertscott, although he says he is not a bodybuilder :grin:


I most certainly am a bodybuilder. I'll thank you not to misrepresent me


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:33 am 
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robertscott wrote:
ephs wrote:
but here are some guys around that can help you with more bodybuilding style routines, maybe robertscott, although he says he is not a bodybuilder :grin:


I most certainly am a bodybuilder. I'll thank you not to misrepresent me

sorry i read some discussion about that in an older thread. no offense. just kidding.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:13 am 
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Just because we aren't bodybuilders in general doesn't mean we can't offer advice. Here's my 2 cents.

1) Big muscle groups first, muscles you need more work on second.
You get huge growth stimulus by doing big compound exercises like squats, deadlifts, rows and presses. Then as the accessorial work you should work on the muscles that you want to grow. The further the exercise goes from the start, the less effective the exercise. Simple stuff.

2) Mix intensity and volume. You need to lift heavy, especially on the main exercise. Just like I mentioned before. But you should input volume (higher reps, lower weigth) as well. So rep ranges should vary a lot. You can even mix them inside the same exercise. For example doing sets of 7, 5 and 3 reps.

3) Time under tension and max tension. I think this is often overlooked. Even I overlooked it quite some time. For max hypertrophy, 10 reps doesn't really mean anything. Muscles don't care about reps, they care about how much tension they are under, and for how long. So atleast at some points you should concentrate on getting bigger time under tension (30 seconds and over, can even be a couple of minutes if you superset or drop set or similar). So get some lactate running in those muscles from time to time. Do slower eccentrics, more reps or use some special rep methods.

Use as good range of motion as possible. You need to control the reps and take them to max tension aka, so use big range of motion. Watch your technique tho.

4) Frequency. If you want to hit certain muscles, hit them more often. Like 2-3 times a week, or every 72 hours or so. It's not that specific, but it's a good guideline. You need to push the muscles more often to maximise growth.

5) Nutrition. You can't out-train a bad diet. Remeber that.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Thanks everybody for the input. I am reading this thread over and over to make sure that the concepts get memorized in my mind :salute:

I originally didn't care about muscle development but more to strength, though lately I thought that I'd be fine with a compromise between two, as probably was when I was deadlifting 160kg x6 reps and doing way more accessory exercises than now.


In reply to Jungledoc:

I may sound bragging, but pushups, even with isometrics (like 4 seconds stop at the bottom or halfway in the movement) doesn't seem to affect me like dips do. Also since I finally got a hold to this rack, I totally put them aside because I remember reading a fitting example on how you won't be tackling 400lbs bench press with a hundred pushups. So I tried sticking to exercises and weights which saturate my muscle with 8 or less repetitions, which I think is a staple of strength and hypertrophy training (correct me if I'm wrong).

Of course correct me if I'm wrong or if doing pushups immediately after heavy dips does something to improve muscles which I wasn't aware of :thumbright:

As of now I'm not even thinking about definition but more to bulking (hence the about 1.6g whey protein/kg bodyweight each day in my diet), or at least I've always heard/read that definition is to be sought only after a solid foundation (or kgs) of muscles being "added" to one's own frame.

-------------- end of "targeted" reply -----

Generally speaking, I'm looking to get as large as possible (staying natural, of course) while keeping my body fat at 10% or lower (like now) and without using anything else than whey protein, creatine monohydrate and vitamins/minerals, or other common supplements though I doubt there's anything which beats protein and above said, since I researched a bit on this topic.

Luckily my legs (they'd still be ok as they are now) and back seem to respond well, though I couldn't say so of my pecs or even worse of my biceps and deltoids.

According to Exrx girth calculator I'm already proportionated based on the wrist size, though I probably am looking after that "extra" muscularity which is what's found on fitness magazines or girl-magnets wear advertisement.



In reply to Dub:

about point 1), should I make 1 or 3 series of this accessory exercise? I do 3 series of most if not all exercises because I think I've read somewhere on studies done about most effective combination for hypertrophy, and 1 or 2 series seemed inferior to 3, while between 3 or more there was no difference.

Also, since I should workout, though not specifically, trapezius upper fibers (so called "yoke") in both deadlift and military press, should I expect similar growth to doing specifically barbell shrugs as an added exercise, or not?


about point 4), I've been worried to overtrain muscles since I realized that more in not always better results. I noticed that when I trained 6 days a week, I made no hypertrophy while when I sticked to 2 trainings a week, spacing them as wide as possible, I made huge gains (at least for my standards).

I begain reading about "mesomorphs" and how they replenish glicogen slower than say ectomorphs, about how because of this they'd benefit from fewer but harder and longer training sessions instead of the latter, which would benefit from lighter, more frequent training due to their faster recovering abilities.
I embraced this way of thinking, and it seemed to work for me. When I trained chest on friday I'd be sore for the entire weeked, often even on monday, though in a manageable way, also because other muscular groups were to be worked out on that day.

So given above first-hand experience (though I realize it may be biased and I'd have been erroneously associated the soreness, which I think is delayed onset muscular soreness, to improvements in my strength and muscle size), I don't know how I'd train, say legs, every 72 hours.

Currently I train different muscular groups every 72 hours, and don't hit the exact same training until about 144 or 168 hours (considering I do workout A then rest two days, then do workout B then rest two days, and so on).

----- end of "targeted" reply -------


Please don't consider above text as whining but just as mere considerations I'm thinking out of my head. I'm not scared of hard training, as long as it proves to be more productive than what I managed to build with my current experience/reading :thumbleft:



A more general question addressed to whoever will reply:
given that I want to improve my whole body, and my program is what you described a full-body divided into two days, rather than a split routine as I thought it'd have been called, what'd be the benefits of switching to a split routine?

I looked at some of the split routine examples on this website, and they seem to be targeted to only certain muscle groups, or at least they don't cover the whole body (maybe this is their purpose?). Won't de-training happen after even just 3-4 weeks?
Or are split routines (thus not covering the entire body) meant to be switched every one or two weeks to prevent de-training of certain muscle groups? Or again are they targeted to people who don't care about the untrained muscles?


Again another 2 questions: may I expect, given that my body fat will drop under a certain percentage, that my abdominal muscles will stick out nicely, aestetically speaking?

Or should I start to target them with some weighted crunches? Again since I don't have a bench, I may be doing weighted crunches instead of barbell crunches, though I don't know if they're equally effective.

Since I've long gone past the spot reduction myth and similar stuff, I think it'd be wise to target them just like I do for deadlifts, like 3 sets and "heavy" weight, enough to allow me no more than say 8 reps, right?

--- other question:

are there any muscle groups which due to their unique nature, behave differently and hence don't respond to 3 series of 8 repetitions each (which is about the general rule I'm applying in my workout) ?

---- other questions:

would it be too crowded (or count-productive) if I change my training from this:

workout A:
Squat 3 set x 10 reps

Barbell Military Press 3x5
Barbell Upright Rows 3x8

Weighted Chest Dips 3x4-7 (using 20kg or 30kg)

[2 days rest between a workout and the next one]

workout B:
Barbell Deadlift 3x6
Barbell Bent-Over Rows 2x9
Pull Ups 3x6 or Weighted Pull Ups 2x4-6 (using a 20kg plate)
Barbell Biceps Curls 3x6-8

---------- to this :

workout A:
Squat 3 set x 10 reps
Barbell Calf raise x 15 reps, same weight, immediately after squat

Barbell Military Press 3x5
Dumbbell (actually plates) lateral raises 3x10 (also with some forced reps to try create soreness in the deltoids)
Barbell Shrugs 2x6-8

Weighted Chest Dips 3x4-7 (using 20kg or 30kg)
Dumbbell flys on floor (with bent arms) 2x8

[2 days rest between a workout and the next one]

workout B:
Barbell Deadlift 3x6
Barbell Bent-Over Rows 2x9
Pull Ups 3x6 or Weighted Pull Ups 2x4-6 (using a 20kg plate)
Barbell Biceps Curls 3x6-8
Weighted crunches 3x6
Weighted lying twist 2x7

--------------------------

In this way I shouldn't be omitting any muscle group (except neck, which would need a harness though I don't have one at the moment), neither hitting them too many times (except for core, which would be hit both days but I chose workout B because sometimes I felt abs sore even without targeting them specifically after that workout, maybe due to deadlifts).

Sorry for the long reply but just as forum post count says, I'm a noob in many aspects and would surely benefit from people which have got more experience than me.

Thank you! :thumbright:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Let me start by saying I think everyone's different. The same principles won't work for everybody. The same methods won't work with everyone. The ability to recover from workouts is one of the best markers on what works. In addition to the measurable gains of course. Experiment with yourself, find out what works best for you. These are my opinions and thoughts on what works for me, or what science migth say in example.

Quote:
I may sound bragging, but pushups, even with isometrics (like 4 seconds stop at the bottom or halfway in the movement) doesn't seem to affect me like dips do. Also since I finally got a hold to this rack, I totally put them aside because I remember reading a fitting example on how you won't be tackling 400lbs bench press with a hundred pushups. So I tried sticking to exercises and weights which saturate my muscle with 8 or less repetitions, which I think is a staple of strength and hypertrophy training (correct me if I'm wrong).

Try different variations. Weighted push-ups, one-armed, plyometric. I haven't met a person who can't get a good ass-whooping workout with push-ups and it's variations. Also, I have not met a person who sucks at bench but crushes push-ups like there's no end. You can achieve huge strength gains with mere bodyweight exercises. The more challenging it goes, the more muscle cells recruit, the more muscle tears, the more gains. In both strength and hypertrophy. Simple. Check these push-up articles for new ideas:
http://nicktumminello.com/2012/06/top-2 ... ariations/
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ushup_test

Quote:
about point 1), should I make 1 or 3 series of this accessory exercise? I do 3 series of most if not all exercises because I think I've read somewhere on studies done about most effective combination for hypertrophy, and 1 or 2 series seemed inferior to 3, while between 3 or more there was no difference.
Series? As in sets? Well, to be honest there is tons of contradicting research about the subject and amount of reps needed. I like to do 2-5 sets. Why? You get more reps in. Which means: More tension, more work to muscle. More dense workout for the muscle (lots of work in short timeframe). You get to "grease the groove", like Pavel Tsatsouline says. So you get more motor training and movement practice at the same time. Then there are people who say one set is enough. Hell, I can never say. But I like 3-5 sets. It gets me pumped and fatiqued, and gives me lots and lots of reps.

Quote:
Also, since I should workout, though not specifically, trapezius upper fibers (so called "yoke") in both deadlift and military press, should I expect similar growth to doing specifically barbell shrugs as an added exercise, or not?
You could try to add one or two high volume sets of shrugs to the end of the workout. See how that affects your recovery.

Quote:
I've been worried to overtrain muscles since I realized that more in not always better results. I noticed that when I trained 6 days a week, I made no hypertrophy while when I sticked to 2 trainings a week, spacing them as wide as possible, I made huge gains (at least for my standards).
I begain reading about "mesomorphs" and how they replenish glicogen slower than say ectomorphs, about how because of this they'd benefit from fewer but harder and longer training sessions instead of the latter, which would benefit from lighter, more frequent training due to their faster recovering abilities.
I embraced this way of thinking, and it seemed to work for me. When I trained chest on friday I'd be sore for the entire weeked, often even on monday, though in a manageable way, also because other muscular groups were to be worked out on that day.
So given above first-hand experience (though I realize it may be biased and I'd have been erroneously associated the soreness, which I think is delayed onset muscular soreness, to improvements in my strength and muscle size), I don't know how I'd train, say legs, every 72 hours. Currently I train different muscular groups every 72 hours, and don't hit the exact same training until about 144 or 168 hours (considering I do workout A then rest two days, then do workout B then rest two days, and so on).
The most important part in muscle growth is recovery. But after you have recovered, you should hit your muscle again to keep the growth stimulus rolling, right? 6 times a week is pretty hardcore, but yeah, 2, 3 days a week is appropriate. And this frequency was extra important for parts you want max growth. Not everything has to be done by this rule. If you are training with that routine every week, you are doing legs within 72 hours or thereabouts. It's three days you know. Deadlifts and squats both stimulate everything in the lower body, so no problem. But if you would want, let's say, more quad growth, you could add some quad-exercise to the end of the workout for 1-3 sets. That would possibly increase the growth stimulus since you are straigth hitting the quads very frequently. For strength, the 72 hour rule isn't necessary. Usually you migth need more rest than that for max strength efforts. Or atleast this is not a consern to worry about. Some people do squats only once a week, same with pressing or pulling.

Quote:
I looked at some of the split routine examples on this website, and they seem to be targeted to only certain muscle groups, or at least they don't cover the whole body (maybe this is their purpose?). Won't de-training happen after even just 3-4 weeks?
Or are split routines (thus not covering the entire body) meant to be switched every one or two weeks to prevent de-training of certain muscle groups? Or again are they targeted to people who don't care about the untrained muscles?

Split training routines target movements or muscles, and whole body is worked in every cycle (a week). There is no detraining, since muscles get stimulus atleast once a week or near that. Doc covered the movement principles great. Don't get too focused on the muscles. You work more muscles in an exercise than you migth think.

Quote:
Again another 2 questions: may I expect, given that my body fat will drop under a certain percentage, that my abdominal muscles will stick out nicely, aestetically speaking? Or should I start to target them with some weighted crunches? Again since I don't have a bench, I may be doing weighted crunches instead of barbell crunches, though I don't know if they're equally effective.
Around 10% and under, yes they should. Personally I'm not a fan of crunches, but core exercises once or twice a week won't hurt. You work you mid-section in squats, deadlifts, presses and pulls as well, but something like planks, landmines, and all the variations aren't a bad choise to add. Once again, monitor your recovery. If your core fails to recover properly, all will fall apart.

Quote:
Since I've long gone past the spot reduction myth and similar stuff, I think it'd be wise to target them just like I do for deadlifts, like 3 sets and "heavy" weight, enough to allow me no more than say 8 reps, right?
8 reps or less isn't a must. Sets can be longer too. They migth help you to lose some extra fat as well.

Quote:
are there any muscle groups which due to their unique nature, behave differently and hence don't respond to 3 series of 8 repetitions each (which is about the general rule I'm applying in my workout) ?
People are different. Some people get great results with big volume on certain muscle groups, some get great results with high intensity on certain muscle groups. Every one of them will respond to training stimulus tho.

Quote:
would it be too crowded (or count-productive) if I change my training from this:
:

No, if you got the time for that. It's not too crowded. It's more bodybuilderish than the first one, and targets more specific muscles. It could work very well. Try it out and see.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:30 pm 
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stone wrote:
workout A:
Squat 3 set x 10 reps
Barbell Calf raise x 15 reps, same weight, immediately after squat

Barbell Military Press 3x5
Dumbbell (actually plates) lateral raises 3x10 (also with some forced reps to try create soreness in the deltoids)
Barbell Shrugs 2x6-8

Weighted Chest Dips 3x4-7 (using 20kg or 30kg)
Dumbbell flys on floor (with bent arms) 2x8

[2 days rest between a workout and the next one]

workout B:
Barbell Deadlift 3x6
Barbell Bent-Over Rows 2x9
Pull Ups 3x6 or Weighted Pull Ups 2x4-6 (using a 20kg plate)
Barbell Biceps Curls 3x6-8
Weighted crunches 3x6
Weighted lying twist 2x7

leave out the shruggs and the lying twist. and i would also leave out the calf raises, cause you don't need to train calves isolated. training the calves isolated is 100% for the optic of your body. it doesn't bring you an advantage in any dynamic movement. i don't have a scientific study for this, but look at almost every athlete. nobody has big calves or trains them isolated.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:00 pm 
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ephs wrote:
but look at almost every athlete. nobody has big calves or trains them isolated.


wrong


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:02 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
ephs wrote:
but look at almost every athlete. nobody has big calves or trains them isolated.


wrong

in soccer (world's #1 sport) nobody has big calves. i mean proportional to his quads. also in most olympic sports. tell me an example.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:41 pm 
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ephs wrote:
robertscott wrote:
ephs wrote:
but look at almost every athlete. nobody has big calves or trains them isolated.


wrong

in soccer (world's #1 sport) nobody has big calves. i mean proportional to his quads. also in most olympic sports. tell me an example.


powerlifting, american football, rugby. Any sport where you need to be big and strong


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:49 pm 
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I see, thanks for your reply and your time to read through all the stuff I've written :sunny:

I think I'll do the abs and calves exercises because particularly the latter, they aren't properly targeted in any other non-specific exercise. I'll just have not to exceed on abs hypertrophy for aesthetics.

Other question: is it good to train a sore muscle (due to lactic acid) compared to a fresher muscle? Like one which has recovered vs one which hasn't recovered.

I'll try out the modified routines as soon as I'll train again :wink:


Thanks everybody for your suggestions.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:02 am 
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robertscott wrote:
powerlifting, american football, rugby. Any sport where you need to be big and strong

i remember a famous routine by bill starr: http://www.strengthcats.com/classicfootballII.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:24 am 
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Ok. Lost me. No way I'm wading through those long rambling posts. See ya all later.

(Renaming thread "Overthinking on Steroids".)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:39 am 
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You can also try farmers walks if you got dumbells and some walking space. Even outside. They are great for traps.

ephs wrote:
leave out the shruggs and the lying twist. and i would also leave out the calf raises, cause you don't need to train calves isolated. training the calves isolated is 100% for the optic of your body. it doesn't bring you an advantage in any dynamic movement. i don't have a scientific study for this, but look at almost every athlete. nobody has big calves or trains them isolated.

I think if you want to train specific muscles, work them more. So calf raises and shrugs have it's place. The underlined statement here bugs me. I think everything is in relation to max strength effort. You need your ankle strength in almost any exercise. And not to say walking and running. How are they not good for dynamic movement? Have you seen the legs of ballet dancers? They practically do very high volume and frequency calf work in every session. I understand where you are coming from, but isolated training has it's marks on some programs. They are more specific. Lacking mass or strength in calves? I'd definitely add them on my program. Why wouldn't I? Plus calf raises are great if you have poor ankle mobility.

Quote:
Other question: is it good to train a sore muscle (due to lactic acid) compared to a fresher muscle? Like one which has recovered vs one which hasn't recovered.
The strength levels might be lower. And if you constantly fail to recover (when talking about different workouts, not exercises inside a workout), your strength levels will drop and progress stall. Otherwise no problem. Some overreaching is alrigth.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:43 am 
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@dub: you are right with the dancer thing, and i thought a bit more about the topic and i think we can say that everybody who stands often on their toes in his sport could benefit from bigger calves, for example also boxers. but in general big calves help you only in two situations i could imagine: 1) you want to raise a table with your legs while seating, 2) to stand longer on your toes (movement you talked about). so stone can go for calf raises. i must admit that i also did calf raises after ankle injuries.

about shruggs: i don't see a benefit in any movement only with bigger traps. the whole back/shoulders must be more developed for an increase in any movement.

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