ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:10 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:00 pm 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Lapland, Finland
ephs wrote:
about shruggs: i don't see a benefit in any movement only with bigger traps. the whole back/shoulders must be more developed for an increase in any movement.

Ah, but here's the magic part: He's not doing only shrugs. They are assisting all the awesome and great shoulder/back exercises. Yet, the person feels he would like to maximise trap growth, not shoulder or back growth. Hence, the shrugs...Or similar trap work.

Wouldn't movement increase if you had weak traps and strong shoulders, and you would strengthen the traps? Same thing with deadlifts. Surely you get your deadlift up if you add more Hamstring, glute or Spinal erector work, right? Even tho you have some deadlifting allready? You are only as strong as your weakest link. Severe weakness even causes dysfunction and compensation. I'm not saying it's the case here, but I once again fail to see your point.

_________________
Physical Preparedness Coach
Co-Owner of UniFit Oy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:42 pm 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 620
Location: Ostenfelde (GER)
Dub wrote:
ephs wrote:
about shruggs: i don't see a benefit in any movement only with bigger traps. the whole back/shoulders must be more developed for an increase in any movement.

Ah, but here's the magic part: He's not doing only shrugs. They are assisting all the awesome and great shoulder/back exercises. Yet, the person feels he would like to maximise trap growth, not shoulder or back growth. Hence, the shrugs...Or similar trap work.

Wouldn't movement increase if you had weak traps and strong shoulders, and you would strengthen the traps? Same thing with deadlifts. Surely you get your deadlift up if you add more Hamstring, glute or Spinal erector work, right? Even tho you have some deadlifting allready? You are only as strong as your weakest link. Severe weakness even causes dysfunction and compensation. I'm not saying it's the case here, but I once again fail to see your point.

i know that it's the best for stone to make shruggs to get huge traps, i just recommend things to change his mind a bit. i made a ton of shruggs in my life, but i had the most growth at the traps with doing only military press. i don't know if it really would make a main lift stronger, if you only get better at an isolated exercise from a single muscle like the traps, cause in a deadlift many muscles interact. i see your point, but in my opinion accessory lifts are not necessary, if you only want to get stronger at the main lifts.

_________________
"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:20 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 pm
Posts: 10
Thanks for your replies. I'm sorry about the debate I started.

How critical would be sleep VS protein/nutrient intake?

Like, would it be better to sleep 7 or so hours continuously and get up and start taking proteins each 3 hours (thus making about 6 meals during the day) or make 1 or 2 less meals and sleep 9 hours, though not-continuously?

I can't seem to find a clear info on this subject.


Thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:49 am 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 620
Location: Ostenfelde (GER)
i would go for more sleep, approx. 8 hours. i'm not sure about the protein intake. i'm just aiming for an intake of at least 1.4-1.5g protein per kg bodyweigt all over the day. some people say you have to eat a meal every few hours, some people say only the overall protein intake is important, cause the body adjusts. do what works best for you and your schedule.

_________________
"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:39 am 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Lapland, Finland
Why do you compare sleeping and eating? They are both very important, but I don't see why you couldn't get both?

_________________
Physical Preparedness Coach
Co-Owner of UniFit Oy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:47 am 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 620
Location: Ostenfelde (GER)
Dub wrote:
Why do you compare sleeping and eating? They are both very important, but I don't see why you couldn't get both?

it looks like he thinks sleep = you can't get protein in this time, so he wants to sleep one hour less to get protein one hour earlier. sleep is more important for your performance in the gym than an intake of protein one hour earlier could ever compensate for.

_________________
"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:56 am 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Lapland, Finland
ephs wrote:
it looks like he thinks sleep = you can't get protein in this time, so he wants to sleep one hour less to get protein one hour earlier. sleep is more important for your performance in the gym than an intake of protein one hour earlier could ever compensate for.

That's very illogical.

_________________
Physical Preparedness Coach
Co-Owner of UniFit Oy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:13 am 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 620
Location: Ostenfelde (GER)
sorry, it was hard for me to write that in english, i mean:

muscle growth cause of better workout performance after 8 hours sleep > 7 hours sleep, but earlier supply of the body with protein

_________________
"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:39 am 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Lapland, Finland
ephs wrote:
sorry, it was hard for me to write that in english, i mean:
muscle growth cause of better workout performance after 8 hours sleep > 7 hours sleep, but earlier supply of the body with protein

Yes. But it still doesn't make sense. Has someone said you can't eat lots of protein and sleep a lot? I don't think so, so what is this all about. There seems to be some weird dogma of "you have to take protein every 3 hours to acutally make it work". And that is just, uh, silly.

_________________
Physical Preparedness Coach
Co-Owner of UniFit Oy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:45 am 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 620
Location: Ostenfelde (GER)
i think that is stone's point of view. it's not my point of view.

_________________
"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:57 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4424
sleep when you're sleepy, eat when you're hungry. Your body knows what it's doing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:33 pm 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2087
Location: New York City
stone wrote:
About rotator cuffs, while I luckily don't feel discomfort, should I try ditching the military press (as suggested in the t-nation article linked in the thread post suggested by Stephen Johnson) and doing front or lateral raises with plates (some of my 10kg and 20kg plates have got handles) instead?


Kenny Croxdale wrote:
I found that I needed more external rotator cuff work, along with some overhead pressing.

Overhead Cable Pressing

One of the problem from constantly doing the bench press is tight shoulders. That is why Olympic Lifters limit bench press training.

What I found is that overhead cable pressing helped with my shoulder rehab by stretching my pec. For me that really helped improve my shoulder condition.


Kenny used the exercises in the article for rehab work on his shoulders. He obviously doesn't subscribe to the article author's idea that overhead pressing is bad. Bench pressing is more likely to injure your shoulders

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:39 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 pm
Posts: 10
Thanks again for your time :salute:


In reply to Dub:

I know that sleep and protein intake are very important and that I can achieve both nicely.

My concern is that if I don't eat as often, my body would be "starving" or going catabolic if I sleep, say 10 hours (like 8 hours continously, wake up, but then try to sleep again for 2 more hours) and eat nothing in that period of time.

Sorry if I didn't address this question properly.

I was thinking like scientific studies showed about creatine, with levels depleting within 3 hours from intake. So with 10 hours without eating anything I thought I'd do more bad than good.



In reply to robertscott:

This general rule may work out if protein didn't suppress hunger as good as it does (I'm also often combining isomaltulose with whey, which as a side-effect suppress hunger too). I know people use a high protein intake to suppress hunger, and also found out that if I take a protein shake and nothing else before or immediately after, I'm ok with a few cookies, but then experience shivering in a not so cold weather. I'd gauge this as a sign of suppressed hunger and undereating. Correct me if I'm wrong. Unfortunately I'm not counting calories as of now, I just try to eat stuff and only then drink my whey shake.



In reply to Stephen Johnson:

What are your thoughts on weighted dips? Do they carry as high of a risk as bench press?



I tried today the modified workout A, and that dumbbell (plate) lateral raises scorched the deltoids as upright rows couldn't (at least for me). I however found out that doing shrugs isn't very efficient on this day since I'd have to load heavily an entire barbell just for them. Could I do them on the deadlift day (workout B) ? Or would it be just be calling for back overtraining?


Thank you :grin:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:52 pm 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2087
Location: New York City
stone wrote:
What are your thoughts on weighted dips?


Weighted dips can be used as a chest exercise or a triceps exercise. With my long arms, chest dips (elbows away from the body) are tough on my shoulders. Shorter armed lifters might do better. Triceps dips work well for me as long as I don't go too low (elbows bent less than 90 degrees) That really hurts my shoulders.

stone wrote:
Do they carry as high of a risk as bench press?


Any exercise that is performed incorrectly (or performed excessively to the point of causing a muscular imbalance) can cause injury. There's nothing inherently wrong with a bench press. It's just that some people become obsessed training to bench 300 lbs (or 400 or 500) to the point of setting themselves up for problems. You have to have balance in your training to cut down on injuries.

Even if you train right, you can still get injured. But you can get injured getting out of bed, too.

PS - Neither dips or bench presses work for me as a chest development exercise. Dumbbell bench presses do.

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:12 pm 
Offline
Junior Member
Junior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:25 pm
Posts: 232
Location: Toronto
robertscott wrote:
sleep when you're sleepy, eat when you're hungry. Your body knows what it's doing


My body is a jerk and a poo poo head :(

_________________
don't you know there ain't no devil
that's just god when he's drunk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group