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Ah, but here's the magic part: He's not doing only shrugs. They are assisting all the awesome and great shoulder/back exercises. Yet, the person feels he would like to maximise trap growth, not shoulder or back growth. Hence, the shrugs...Or similar trap work.

Wouldn't movement increase if you had weak traps and strong shoulders, and you would strengthen the traps? Same thing with deadlifts. Surely you get your deadlift up if you add more Hamstring, glute or Spinal erector work, right? Even tho you have some deadlifting allready? You are only as strong as your weakest link. Severe weakness even causes dysfunction and compensation. I'm not saying it's the case here, but I once again fail to see your point.

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Prove the impossible!

i know that it's the best for stone to make shruggs to get huge traps, i just recommend things to change his mind a bit. i made a ton of shruggs in my life, but i had the most growth at the traps with doing only military press. i don't know if it really would make a main lift stronger, if you only get better at an isolated exercise from a single muscle like the traps, cause in a deadlift many muscles interact. i see your point, but in my opinion accessory lifts are not necessary, if you only want to get stronger at the main lifts.

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"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali

Thanks for your replies. I'm sorry about the debate I started.

How critical would be sleep VS protein/nutrient intake?

Like, would it be better to sleep 7 or so hours continuously and get up and start taking proteins each 3 hours (thus making about 6 meals during the day) or make 1 or 2 less meals and sleep 9 hours, though not-continuously?

I can't seem to find a clear info on this subject.


Thank you

i would go for more sleep, approx. 8 hours. i'm not sure about the protein intake. i'm just aiming for an intake of at least 1.4-1.5g protein per kg bodyweigt all over the day. some people say you have to eat a meal every few hours, some people say only the overall protein intake is important, cause the body adjusts. do what works best for you and your schedule.

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"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali

Why do you compare sleeping and eating? They are both very important, but I don't see why you couldn't get both?

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Prove the impossible!

it looks like he thinks sleep = you can't get protein in this time, so he wants to sleep one hour less to get protein one hour earlier. sleep is more important for your performance in the gym than an intake of protein one hour earlier could ever compensate for.

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"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali

That's very illogical.

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Prove the impossible!

sorry, it was hard for me to write that in english, i mean:

muscle growth cause of better workout performance after 8 hours sleep > 7 hours sleep, but earlier supply of the body with protein

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"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali

Yes. But it still doesn't make sense. Has someone said you can't eat lots of protein and sleep a lot? I don't think so, so what is this all about. There seems to be some weird dogma of "you have to take protein every 3 hours to acutally make it work". And that is just, uh, silly.

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Prove the impossible!

i think that is stone's point of view. it's not my point of view.

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"his hands can't hit what his eyes can't see" - muhammad ali

sleep when you're sleepy, eat when you're hungry. Your body knows what it's doing

Kenny used the exercises in the article for rehab work on his shoulders. He obviously doesn't subscribe to the article author's idea that overhead pressing is bad. Bench pressing is more likely to injure your shoulders

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Thanks, TimD

Thanks again for your time


In reply to Dub:

I know that sleep and protein intake are very important and that I can achieve both nicely.

My concern is that if I don't eat as often, my body would be "starving" or going catabolic if I sleep, say 10 hours (like 8 hours continously, wake up, but then try to sleep again for 2 more hours) and eat nothing in that period of time.

Sorry if I didn't address this question properly.

I was thinking like scientific studies showed about creatine, with levels depleting within 3 hours from intake. So with 10 hours without eating anything I thought I'd do more bad than good.



In reply to robertscott:

This general rule may work out if protein didn't suppress hunger as good as it does (I'm also often combining isomaltulose with whey, which as a side-effect suppress hunger too). I know people use a high protein intake to suppress hunger, and also found out that if I take a protein shake and nothing else before or immediately after, I'm ok with a few cookies, but then experience shivering in a not so cold weather. I'd gauge this as a sign of suppressed hunger and undereating. Correct me if I'm wrong. Unfortunately I'm not counting calories as of now, I just try to eat stuff and only then drink my whey shake.



In reply to Stephen Johnson:

What are your thoughts on weighted dips? Do they carry as high of a risk as bench press?



I tried today the modified workout A, and that dumbbell (plate) lateral raises scorched the deltoids as upright rows couldn't (at least for me). I however found out that doing shrugs isn't very efficient on this day since I'd have to load heavily an entire barbell just for them. Could I do them on the deadlift day (workout B) ? Or would it be just be calling for back overtraining?


Thank you

Weighted dips can be used as a chest exercise or a triceps exercise. With my long arms, chest dips (elbows away from the body) are tough on my shoulders. Shorter armed lifters might do better. Triceps dips work well for me as long as I don't go too low (elbows bent less than 90 degrees) That really hurts my shoulders.



Any exercise that is performed incorrectly (or performed excessively to the point of causing a muscular imbalance) can cause injury. There's nothing inherently wrong with a bench press. It's just that some people become obsessed training to bench 300 lbs (or 400 or 500) to the point of setting themselves up for problems. You have to have balance in your training to cut down on injuries.

Even if you train right, you can still get injured. But you can get injured getting out of bed, too.

PS - Neither dips or bench presses work for me as a chest development exercise. Dumbbell bench presses do.

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Thanks, TimD

My body is a jerk and a poo poo head :(

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don't you know there ain't no devil
that's just god when he's drunk