ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:06 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:02 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:40 pm
Posts: 16
This thread could also be titlted "Optimal frequency for muscle groups vs for movements?"

My goals are strength and mass, equally. Intermediate training experience.

I train 4-6 days a week, with 4 different variations. So a week would look like this:

Quote:
Bench and press 1:
Barbell bench press.
Dumbell shoulder press and auxilliary shoulder exercise.
Dips

Squat/pull 1:
Back squat
Romanian deadlift
Pullups, row

Bench and press 2:
Barbell overhead press.
Dumbell (decline) bench press and auxilliary chest exercise.
Dips

Squat/pull 2:
Deadlift
Front squat
Pullups, row

Bench and press 1:
Barbell bench press.
Dumbell shoulder press and auxilliary shoulder exercise.
Dips

Squat/pull 1:
Back squat
Romanian deadlift
Pullups, row


Would my program constitute too much variation to reach an optimal frequency for the same movement?

That is, in all likelihood and speaking from general principles, would I be better off doing the same movements more often? What would I gain from it, strength and mass, both?

I am also in doubt whether alternating say decline bench press and bench press, or dumbell versus barbell, constitutes "a different movement", or if the neural adaptations will more or less carry over?

What I am doing is giving me steady progress, but I am simply wondering if less variation according to general principles would likely make my progress or strength gains faster.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:30 pm 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2087
Location: New York City
@Vigilius:

I wonder how effective your back workout is after you're done with your legs.

Half of your workout time is spent on upper body push movements, while upper body pull, lower body push and lower body pull are crammed into the other half.

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:38 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:40 pm
Posts: 16
Stephen Johnson wrote:
@Vigilius:

I wonder how effective your back workout is after you're done with your legs.

Half of your workout time is spent on upper body push movements, while upper body pull, lower body push and lower body pull are crammed into the other half.

Actually, this listing doesnt include all the back exercises I do, but the basics. I do slightly more pulling movements than pushing movements.

But thats not really why I created the thread. The reason was the question of variation and movement frequency, relating to primary compound exercises.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:53 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4442
Location: Pennsylvania
"I wonder how effective your back workout is after you're done with your legs.

Half of your workout time is spent on upper body push movements, while upper body pull, lower body push and lower body pull are crammed into the other half." - Stephen Johnson

I was thinking the same thing.

As for optimal frequency ... it depends. How many sets and reps are you doing? Are you training hard all the time or taking it easy some days? How old are you? How much sleep do you get? What's your diet look like? All of these factors will effect your ability to recover, so there's really no simple answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:28 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:40 pm
Posts: 16
Matt Z wrote:
"I wonder how effective your back workout is after you're done with your legs.

Half of your workout time is spent on upper body push movements, while upper body pull, lower body push and lower body pull are crammed into the other half." - Stephen Johnson

I was thinking the same thing.

As for optimal frequency ... it depends. How many sets and reps are you doing? Are you training hard all the time or taking it easy some days? How old are you? How much sleep do you get? What's your diet look like? All of these factors will effect your ability to recover, so there's really no simple answer.

But isn't there a general guideline for whether to perform different variations of a movement on different days within a week, or repeat the same movement varation (say, barbell back squat, instead of alternating with front squat)? Lets say assuming the volume and intensity would be the same in either case.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:31 pm 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2087
Location: New York City
Vigilius wrote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:
@Vigilius:

I wonder how effective your back workout is after you're done with your legs.

Half of your workout time is spent on upper body push movements, while upper body pull, lower body push and lower body pull are crammed into the other half.

Actually, this listing doesnt include all the back exercises I do, but the basics. I do slightly more pulling movements than pushing movements. .


You must be really burned out after the squat/pull days, then.

The fact remains that you're doing two workouts composed entirely of upper body push movements, and two workouts that include the other three movements. That's balanced?

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:42 am 
Offline
Veteren Member
Veteren Member

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm
Posts: 2406
Stephen Johnson wrote:
You must be really burned out after the squat/pull days, then.
The fact remains that you're doing two workouts composed entirely of upper body push movements, and two workouts that include the other three movements. That's balanced?


I'll trust what he says and presume he has longer workouts on Leg / back day. Maybe press days are 45 minutes and leg/back days are 90 minutes. You can't judge time split across movements just by counting days


*******

OP,

you remind me of me. We want to get unilateral work in, vertical, horizontal, heavy legs (Squat/Dead), volume legs (Front/RDL), and that's not even courting some lateral raises for the delts.
With that said, I think whether or not you are doing the right movements frenquently enough, or throwing in too much variety to get the gains you seek... imo, the more critical aspect you'll need to suss out is balances heavy, light, and rest days, if you want to keep doing all those compound lifts more than 4x /week.
Lift heavy, whether its sets of 3 or 12, you'll want to push yourself to have a training effect. I assure you, you can go to a 4 day/week Upper/Lower split and still get enough frequency in. ON lower Day do DeadLift and Lunges, and then Front Squat and RDL on the other day. etc.

not sure I added much, just trying move us past the 50% of your workout is upper pushing discussion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:54 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4424
instead of doing a push day, and a pull/legs day, do a push day, a pull day and a legs day.

You seem to want to train loads of days in a week so split it like this

push
pull
legs
off
push
pull
legs
off

and just carry on like that

there's nothing wrong with the exercises you've picked, or the variation within the week, but you are going to end up with seriously messed up posture and shoulders doing it the way you're currently doing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:41 am 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2087
Location: New York City
robertscott wrote:
instead of doing a push day, and a pull/legs day, do a push day, a pull day and a legs day.


Sounds good to me. Back is too important a bodypart to get short shrift. :cheers:

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:51 am 
Offline
Junior Member
Junior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:25 pm
Posts: 232
Location: Toronto
Dan John was just talking about auditing your program to find the balance between exercise variation and truly hammering home the fundamental movements.

Best Ways to Audit Your Program

_________________
don't you know there ain't no devil
that's just god when he's drunk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:16 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:40 pm
Posts: 16
So what I am unsure of is still the basic question: is it okay, if you repeat a workout 2 times in a week, to do two different variations of your primary lifts on the two different days? Like this: (push+pull+legs example, only listing 2 primary exercises)

Quote:
One week push/legs examples
Push day 1: Barbell bench press, dumbell shoulder press
Legs day 1: Deadlift, front squat
Push day 2: Barbell overhead press, dumbell bench press
Legs day 2: Back squat, RDL

(excluding pull day examples)


This is not a program, I am not asking you to critique it, it's an attempt to make a clear example of the question I am asking, and with an "answer" I mean not just a yes or no but a reasoned answer. Why would it be better to do less variation, or do it this way?

Is it acceptable because it's variations of the same movement, not totally different moves? Do the neural adaptions carry over, or last a week so the adapations dont go away before I hit it again (a week after)?

I simply seem to prefer the variation from a psychological standpoint. But I want to know if it would be better from a training standpoint to repeat the same variations.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:47 am 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7503
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
Yeah. There is no simple answer to that. It all depends, as we so often say here. See MattZ's answer. You don't tell us anything about intensity, volume, frequency, etc., etc. It might be fine for one guy and not another.

"Is this too much variation of movement?" No, probably not. There's really not much variation. BB bench on one upper day, DB bench on the other. BB press once, DB press once. No big deal.
"Is it acceptable...?" Acceptable? In what sense? It's acceptable, but not because its variations of the same movement. It's acceptable because you have already said you're getting good results. I don't really see that there's an issue here.

And I don't think it's that bad of a template, overall, either. I assume you plan for adequate rest within the training week.

Quote:
But isn't there a general guideline for whether to perform different variations of a movement on different days within a week, or repeat the same movement varation (say, barbell back squat, instead of alternating with front squat)? Lets say assuming the volume and intensity would be the same in either case.
No, I don't think there's any such guideline.

Variety is good, but you can vary things within a template, within a day or over time. It's all up to you! Some things make more sense than others, but it comes down to what works for you.

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:03 am 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2087
Location: New York City
@Vigilius:

Sorry for the misunderstanding, first of all. I've led this thread astray. :red:

But to answer your question, why don't you try doing the varied workout during one training cycle, an unvaried workout the next training cycle, and write down (and compare) the results of both in a training diary?

As MattZ noted, people are different. A lot of factors influence how an individual responds to exercise. Actually doing things beats over-analysis every time.

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:48 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:40 pm
Posts: 16
Stephen Johnson wrote:
@Vigilius:

Sorry for the misunderstanding, first of all. I've led this thread astray. :red:

But to answer your question, why don't you try doing the varied workout during one training cycle, an unvaried workout the next training cycle, and write down (and compare) the results of both in a training diary?

As MattZ noted, people are different. A lot of factors influence how an individual responds to exercise. Actually doing things beats over-analysis every time.

I have more or less already done it and what I found is I seem to progress for a longer time with more variation, with less feeling of hard work (even though I do push myself), less fatigue and less joint and tendon soreness (due to different stress positions maybe).

But I am just wondering if all of those things are simply psychosomatic, and only a result of the psychological benefits I seem to enjoy from not doing the same movement variation every time I train. The strength gains are not purely psychosomatic of course, but maybe they could be even better with a different way of training if I had another attitude to it.

The reason I am thinking this way is that I have constantly been told by others I am doing things wrong, and I get too low frequency because theres a whole week between each same movement variation, and the intensity and volume is only moderate (e.g. 3 sets of 6 and not too many exercises, but a steady progression). I know all that counts is results, but everyone tells me that I "should" progress EVEN better if I do less. And I what I wanted to find out was what exactly is the reason if there is one for this common belief.

My thought was that it may have to do with the specifity of neurological adaptions and that the benefits of supercompensation are lost within a short timeframe if you use moderate volume/intensity and don't repeat the exact same specific movement stress.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:09 pm 
Offline
Veteren Member
Veteren Member

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm
Posts: 2406
take BB Bench and DB Bench
If you do (1) each 1x per week.
OR (2) one 2x per week
You'll progress on both the 1st way, and also on both the 2nd way (you just won't be measuring it)
But on the 2nd way, you'll probaby progress a bit less on the one you are not actually doing. But in aggregate are you making up for it by the extra amount you are progressing in the one you are doing?

My thoughts: Do the ONE you are currently making the most gains in, i.e. the one where you have the least adaptation. If you are progressing along at the same rate with both movements, then it's probaby matters very little (do both for variety, or better, find a 3rd way to do instead for several weeks)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group