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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
"Are isolation exercises necessary?" has been discussed here ad nauseum. I think a fair summary is:
For general strength and health isolation lifts are not necessary for most people, and the basic compound lifts are foundational.
For lifters who wish to try to increase the size of particular body parts (I can see how this could go badly astray here) isolation exercises are needed.
Most lifters would benefit to some extent from a few carefully chosen isolation lifts as accessories to major lifts. Or to look cool in the gym.

:laughing3:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:08 pm 
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JasonJones wrote:

When you misrepresent someone's argument for the purposes of defeating it, it's called a straw man FYI.


cool, and when I respond to someone's post with a "LOL" and a joke about them being a gorilla it's called banter FYI, and no arguments contained therein are to be taken seriously.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
"Are isolation exercises necessary?" has been discussed here ad nauseum


and then some, and seriously the OP didn't say he wants to gain weight, he said he wants to bring up his arms which are lagging behind his torso. Telling him to do more compound lifts will make him bigger overall, but his arms will continue to lag.

Some serious reading comprehension issues going on here. Why on earth would we need to get bogged down in the compound vs isolation quagmire when it has no relevance?

Back is lagging? Train back more.
Chest is lagging? Train chest more.
Arms are lagging? Squat more? No! Train arms more!

I think you guys are just trying to wind me up. I bet if he'd posted a thread saying his quads were lagging and I told him to switch to front squats, pre-exhaust etc, basically just telling him to train quads more, you'd all sagely nod your heads, scratch your beards and be like "yes, very good." But when ARMS comes up it's all "ooh son you better deadlift more foundation lifts blargle garble rarble..."

y'all are just snobs that look down on bodybuilders. I'm going home and taking my ball with me.

and ALL OF YOUR ARMS SUCK

except hoose. But he's too hairy to count.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:54 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
JasonJones wrote:

When you misrepresent someone's argument for the purposes of defeating it, it's called a straw man FYI.


cool, and when I respond to someone's post with a "LOL" and a joke about them being a gorilla it's called banter FYI, and no arguments contained therein are to be taken seriously.

:roll:


Relax brah, we're all Roberts here.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:59 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
...
I think you guys are just trying to wind me up. ...


That's the best game here. How come you haven't shared any music lately?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:48 pm 
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I subscirbe to the idea that your arms won't grow (or anything) if you are not eating above maintence. They may get more defined. Thus, I pointed out his resistance to eating more. Of course it was all ignored, which might be for the best.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:10 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
y'all are just snobs that look down on bodybuilders. I'm going home and taking my ball with me.


I'd wager it has more to do with exrx not being a bodybuilding forum than anything else. I wouldn't give body building advice because I wouldn't know what I was talking about. We're all just staying in our wheelhouse here. I would wager (hope?) that if someone were looking for bodybuilding advice they wouldn't look for it here.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:15 pm 
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It's kind of a funny forum to characterize but it seems most people here are trying to get stronger or otherwise improve their fitness but I'm sure some are into bodybuilding just like I'm sure there are one or two that like running, or Crossfit.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:53 am 
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robertscott wrote:
...now what you'll probably find is a lot of people on this board are going to tell you just to get bigger overall, and that you don't need to work your arms directly. They will tell you that compound lifts are enough, and the best way to add muscle to your arms is by doing compounds....


Jungledoc wrote:
Yep. What Bob said. Of course, he is wrong in his prediction about what the rest of us would say. He underestimates his influence on us all.


Jungledoc wrote:
For lifters who wish to try to increase the size of particular body parts (I can see how this could go badly astray here) isolation exercises are needed.
Most lifters would benefit to some extent from a few carefully chosen isolation lifts as accessories to major lifts. Or to look cool in the gym.


robertscott wrote:
But when ARMS comes up it's all "ooh son you better deadlift more foundation lifts blargle garble rarble..."

y'all are just snobs that look down on bodybuilders. I'm going home and taking my ball with me.

and ALL OF YOUR ARMS SUCK

except hoose. But he's too hairy to count.


So you say what we're going to say.

We say something quite different.

Then you complain about what we said.

Which we didn't say.

We all pretty much agree with you.

But yeah, if there's a chance to wind you up a little, why pass it by? :)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:49 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
So you say what we're going to say.

We say something quite different.



oh really?

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
How much can you deadlift ?


JasonJones wrote:
Most people trying to gain weight need to lift more and eat more. As generalized advice for a novice lifter, focussing on the compound lifts vs. trying to find a program to address lagging body parts is going to yield far better results. From a general health perspective focussing on the fundamental human movements and developing useful strength is pivotal, essential, and ought to be mandatory.


yes, there was agreement to train the arms, but for no reason the usual "just do compounds and get bigger" dogma raised its head again, when the OP's questions was CLEARLY not about how to gain weight, it was about how to improve his lagging arms.

JasonJones wrote:
Relax brah
,

I'm relaxed. Jellyfish carry more tension in their shoulders than I. Brah.

JasonJones wrote:
we're all Roberts here.


You wish. Brah.

JasonJones wrote:
I wouldn't give body building advice because I wouldn't know what I was talking about.


But yet, you just kinda did... Funny how that works :thumbleft:

Brah.

stuward wrote:
robertscott wrote:
...
I think you guys are just trying to wind me up. ...


That's the best game here. How come you haven't shared any music lately?


There's the rub. Bastards.

I was actually just thinking the same thing about the music, I've got some doozies.

By the way, I'll wager good money the OP doesn't come back to this thread.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:24 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
JasonJones wrote:
we're all Roberts here.


You wish. Brah.


Changed my middle name to Robert last year :3
robertscott wrote:
JasonJones wrote:
I wouldn't give body building advice because I wouldn't know what I was talking about.


But yet, you just kinda did... Funny how that works :thumbleft:


Negative. OP is 55 kilos. More than 9 kilos short even for Bantamweight.

Getting an arms workout is hardly the sole domain of bodybuilders.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:24 pm 
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Strangely, I'm with robert on this one.

Maybe it's because saying that you don't need isolation to maximize hypertrophy is like saying you don't have to eat meat or protein supplements because you get enough protein from beans or eggs. Or that you don't have to deadlift to get a stronger deadlift. Which are sort of true, you can do that. But if you have a goal to achieve something as fast and good as possible, why would we deny that chance?

Yes, OP is quite lightweigth, he can't build huge arms to a 60kg body. That's understood. You have to eat a lot and do compound exercises, that's a given. But if a client/athlete wants bigger arms, then hell, I would add arm work to the program. And it will make a difference. No BB Rows will not work as well to build bigger arms than actual arm training. By adding arm work, you
1: Get more frequency, your arms get to work more, and more often.
2: Get more volume, more reps and sets in addition to all rows and pulls.
3: Increase time under tension for said muscle, more work, more stress, more fatique, more muscle damage.
And suprise suprise, these are some of the main factors of HYPERTROPHY.

Doing isolation work means roughly 5-10 minutes from a workout, if that. A couple of sets. Maybe a superset of exercises. Nothing more is needed. Not like you need an actual arm day to get your guns to grow. If you are really serious, want big improvements and have a little cash, go to the pro. Dan Trink has build one high-rated arm workout protocol: Two ticket's to the gun show.
http://www.trinkfitness.com/2-tickets-to-the-gun-show/

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:02 pm 
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I think a lot of people have some funny ideas about what's proportional. ... Most gym rats develop their chest and arms well beyond their legs and back. ... Therefore it's hard to say without actually seeing someone, whether or not his arms are really lagging behind the rest of his body.

Generally, I'd only recommend direct arm work if arms are a genuine weak point.

PS) I used to train like a bodybuilder and did a lot of direct arm work, however I haven't done curls or extensions in years. In that time, I've gotten a lot stronger, and haven't lost anything in muscle size (17" upper arms at 5'6" tall).


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:32 pm 
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JasonJones wrote:
Negative. OP is 55 kilos. More than 9 kilos short even for Bantamweight.


and? Maybe his next thread will be about gaining weight, but this thread is about dealing with his LAGGING ARMS.

lagging.

arms.

Not trying to gain weight. Lagging arms. You think he should get bigger? Well that's up to him. In the meantime he is more concerned about his arms not growing in proportion to the rest of his body, which is why I have advised him to train his arms more.

Had he asked about gaining weight overall, my advice would have been different. As it stands, if he asks a question, I will answer the question he asks, not the one I think he should be asking, which is what you did.

Dub wrote:
Strangely, I'm with robert on this one.

Maybe it's because saying that you don't need isolation to maximize hypertrophy is like saying you don't have to eat meat or protein supplements because you get enough protein from beans or eggs. Or that you don't have to deadlift to get a stronger deadlift. Which are sort of true, you can do that. But if you have a goal to achieve something as fast and good as possible, why would we deny that chance?

Yes, OP is quite lightweigth, he can't build huge arms to a 60kg body. That's understood. You have to eat a lot and do compound exercises, that's a given. But if a client/athlete wants bigger arms, then hell, I would add arm work to the program. And it will make a difference. No BB Rows will not work as well to build bigger arms than actual arm training. By adding arm work, you
1: Get more frequency, your arms get to work more, and more often.
2: Get more volume, more reps and sets in addition to all rows and pulls.
3: Increase time under tension for said muscle, more work, more stress, more fatique, more muscle damage.
And suprise suprise, these are some of the main factors of HYPERTROPHY.

Doing isolation work means roughly 5-10 minutes from a workout, if that. A couple of sets. Maybe a superset of exercises. Nothing more is needed. Not like you need an actual arm day to get your guns to grow. If you are really serious, want big improvements and have a little cash, go to the pro. Dan Trink has build one high-rated arm workout protocol: Two ticket's to the gun show.
http://www.trinkfitness.com/2-tickets-to-the-gun-show/


well blow me down! Dub I could kiss you.

Matt Z wrote:
I think a lot of people have some funny ideas about what's proportional. ... Most gym rats develop their chest and arms well beyond their legs and back. ... Therefore it's hard to say without actually seeing someone, whether or not his arms are really lagging behind the rest of his body.

Generally, I'd only recommend direct arm work if arms are a genuine weak point.

PS) I used to train like a bodybuilder and did a lot of direct arm work, however I haven't done curls or extensions in years. In that time, I've gotten a lot stronger, and haven't lost anything in muscle size (17" upper arms at 5'6" tall).


I agree with all of this, and definitely think that lagging bodyparts are pretty subjective. If this guy thinks they are lagging then whether or not they would be to me or you, they are to him, so he might as well fix it.

You're a beast fo sho Matt, but I'm sure you'd agree that it's easier to maintain a physique than to build it, and if you decided one day that your arms were lagging behind the rest of you, you'd train them directly?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:07 pm 
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If they were holding back my strength gains, ... yes.

Of course, curls and extensions aren't the only way to go. I might also try things like close-grip bench presses, triceps dips and bench dips for triceps, and curl-grip pull-ups for biceps (not necessarily all in one program).


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