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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:59 pm 
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How critical is this? If I take a shower after my workout, it'll use up this precious time. Should I keep a bag or jar of peanuts in my gym bag?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:24 pm 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/

Quote:
Due to the transient anabolic impact of a protein-rich meal and its potential synergy with the trained state, pre- and post-exercise meals should not be separated by more than approximately 3–4 hours, given a typical resistance training bout lasting 45–90 minutes. If protein is delivered within particularly large mixed-meals (which are inherently more anticatabolic), a case can be made for lengthening the interval to 5–6 hours.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:04 am 
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Not so important. Stu had it well on the research. The main reason to get some nutrients fast is to get the most of out the anabolic window of working out. It's at it best for the first two hours, slows down to the 4-hour mark, but stays elevated for up to 24-48 hours. So absolutely no worries there.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:55 am 
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It's weird how this myth is so pervasive.

I mean it takes hours to digest stuff anyway, so when you hit the gym whatever you've eaten during the day is still being digested so you're getting all the amino acids or whatever you need. Assuming of course you don't eat like crap before you hit the gym.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:40 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
It's weird how this myth is so pervasive.

I mean it takes hours to digest stuff anyway, so when you hit the gym whatever you've eaten during the day is still being digested so you're getting all the amino acids or whatever you need. Assuming of course you don't eat like crap before you hit the gym.


Same idea here. Well, depending also to your metabolism. Take some time to rest after you eat, at least and interval of 10-15 mins. It's not that ideal to hit the gym just right after eating.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:53 am 
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This is about eating after working out, not about working out after eating. Not that there's much difference, but the OP had heard that you have to get your post-workout meal in less than 20 minutes, or something dire would eventuate. It won't.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:08 am 
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John Ivy wrote a book called "Nutrient Timing" that started it all and it still seems to have some merit in the endurance population. Even then people like Fred Hatfield complained that carbs after working out blunted the growth hormone responce. Dave Barr got upset and said that the science didn't support it and teh post exercise "Window" was more like a "Garage door". I think Alan Aragon did a good job sorting out the truth. In the case of a fasted workout, as in working out before breakfast, it makes sense to have your postworkout meal as soon as possible after working out, otherwise, it depends on how long since you last ate.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:47 am 
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I'm back on the fasting bandwagon. Giving the carbless post workout meal a try too.

workout nutrition is looking like this these days:

pre workout:

20g BCAA
20g glutamine (for the health benefits, not because I think it builds muscle)
cup of coffee

then post workout, usually about half an hour to an hour after:

6 eggs

and that's it. We shall see how well it works.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:54 am 
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When do you take carbos then?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:25 am 
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Dub wrote:
When do you take carbos then?


He's probably cutting. There's not real reason for carbs while cutting.


Bobbie wrote:
pre workout:

20g BCAA
20g glutamine (for the health benefits, not because I think it builds muscle)
cup of coffee


This is a good idea but I'm not sure the glutamine is a good idea with the BCAAs. I think it would overpower the BCAAs. Better would be to take it after, or anytime really.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Dub wrote:
When do you take carbos then?


I have carbs with my evening meal. My evening meal is usually HUGE, with a ton of protein and carbs. I like doing it this way because it means I can have pretty much anything I want for dinner and the mrs and I can eat the same thing.

I get a bit more carbs in the form of fruit over the course of the evening as well.

My pre bed meal doesn't contain any carbs when I'm in recomp mode, which I currently am. It's usually meat and something green. My thinking is eating this way will keep insulin sensitivity high as a kite.

I don't stress it though, if I really want carbs I'll have some carbs.

Should also point out I only train fasted/carbless on days where I train in the mornings/afternoons. If I train in the evening I've had my evening meal so I've got some carbs in me. I generally have carbs again in my pre-bed meal on days I train in the evening.

So really, the general philosophy is train fasted when I can, otherwise I just fast for a while after I get up and have no carbs before dinner.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:33 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Bobbie wrote:
pre workout:

20g BCAA
20g glutamine (for the health benefits, not because I think it builds muscle)
cup of coffee


This is a good idea but I'm not sure the glutamine is a good idea with the BCAAs. I think it would overpower the BCAAs. Better would be to take it after, or anytime really.


Lol @ Bobbie...

That's an interesting thought Stu, I had a wee google about and came up with this (I've bolded the most important bits):


Interaction Of BCAA’s & Glutamine Metabolism

Point blank, exercise promotes increased BCAA oxidation (Shirmomura et al., 2004). This increased degradation of BCAA’s helps maintain energy homeostasis by providing carbon as a direct energy source and glucose homeostasis by providing substrates for the citric-acid cycle and gluconeogenesis (glucose-alanine cycle).

What Is Homeostasis?

Homeostasis is the tendency of the body to seek and maintain a condition of balance or equilibrium within its internal environment, even when faced with external changes. A simple example of homeostasis is the body’s ability to maintain an internal temperature around 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, whatever the temperature outside.

In other words, it’s the ability of the body to maintain internal equilibrium by adjusting its physiological processes. The body tries not to have too much or too little of any important fluids, hormones, etc.

Plasma and muscle glutamine levels are also decreased post workout and it can take hours before they are restored (Rowbottom, 1996). Skeletal muscle and plasma glutamine levels are decreased during times of increased stress and metabolic demand, such as illness and exercise, while BCAA levels are often unchanged.

Some may view this as meaning the BCAA’s are not depleted or there is not a lack of BCAA’s during illness or exercise.
In reality, BCAA levels are not decreased because proteolysis of skeletal muscle and resynthesis of BCAA from branched-chain keto acids (BCKA) in the liver increases BCAA levels (Holeck, 2002). It is not that BCAA levels are not depleted, but rather they are kept elevated by breaking down skeletal muscle and resynthesizing BCAA’s.

Research

According to Houston (2001), “Glutamine content in skeletal muscle and other tissues appears to have a regulatory role in whole body protein synthesis.” Glutamine levels inside muscle govern protein synthesis and nitrogen balance and therefore muscle growth (VanAcker et al. 1999). The newly synthesized glutamine is created by using BCAA’s obtained from muscle protein breakdown (Holecek, 2002).

What all this means is glutamine requirements are trying to be met during/post workout by BCAA catabolism causing BCAA catabolism/muscle protein breakdown to be increased.

What Does Catabolism Mean?

Catabolism refers to the metabolic process that is characterized by molecular breakdown and energy release, such as the decrease of muscle mass. Thus, it means “muscle loss” in many common bodybuilding contexts. One way to increase skeletal muscle hypertrophy is by decreasing BCAA oxidation and therefore skeletal muscle catabolism. This can be accomplished by supplementing with BCAA and Glutamine.

Supplementing With BCAA & Glutamine

Glutamine administration has been shown to decrease leucine oxidation (Holeck, 2002). The mechanism behind this decrease in oxidation is believed to be that glutamine oxidation increases NADH levels (and increases the NADH/NAD+ ratio), thereby inhibiting BCKA dehydrogenase, which is the “key-enzyme” in BCAA oxidation (Holeck, 2002).
Research on leucine shows that once the minimum requirement of leucine for protein synthesis is met, leucine can then be used to activate various signaling pathways (Layman, 2003), such as the mTOR pathway.


What Does “mTOR” Stand For?

“mTOR” stands for Mammalian Target of Rapamycin, one of the body’s protein synthesis regulators, energy sensors, and nutrient sensors of amino acid availability, specifically of leucine. mTOR is activated when ATP levels are high, and blocked when ATP levels are decreased. mTOR activation is vital for skeletal muscle hypertrophy.
It may sound like leucine is free to exert its powerful effect of mTOR activation, but one must remember that protein breakdown and synthesis are occurring throughout the entire body; the body’s protein stores are in a constant state of flux. The constant body protein flux plus the increased BCAA/leucine oxidation caused by exercise means that leucine is in high demand and therefore may not be able to participate in muscle growth at its full potential. This is where supplementing with additional BCAA’s (or free-form leucine depending on your beliefs) and glutamine comes into play. Supplementing with glutamine will help keep skeletal muscle and plasma glutamine concentrations elevated and decrease BCAA/leucine oxidation and therefore muscle catabolism.

Conclusion

Supplementing with BCAA’s will help meet the increased BCAA oxidation caused by exercise by providing substrates for energy production and protein synthesis and serving as precursors for alanine and glutamine. This means there will be more BCAA/leucine available to stimulate protein synthesis through mTOR-dependent and independent pathways.

References
1. Holecek M. Relation between glutamine, branched-chain amino acids, and protein metabolism. Nutrition. 2002 Feb;18(2):130-3. Review.
2. Layman, DK (2003). The role of leucine in weight loss diets and glucose homeostasis. J. Nutr. 133: 261S-267S.
3. Rowbottom DG, Keast D, Morton AR. The emerging role of glutamine as an indicator of exercise stress and overtraining. Sports Med. 1996 Feb;21(2):80-97. Review.
4. Shimomura, Y. Murakami, T.Nakai, N. Nagasaki, M. Harri, R.A. (2004). Exercise Promotes BCAA Catabolism: Effects of BCAA Supplementation on Skeletal Muscle during Exercise J. Nutri. 134: 1583S-1587S.





so it doesn't look like they compete, but actually compliment each other. Quite an interesting read. I might check out the first referenced study later.

Anecdotally, I sometimes lurk other boards frequented by really hardcore bodybuilders. I'm talking guys who are like 250lbs+, and it's quite a common combination among those dudes so I think it's all good really.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:19 pm 
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That's cool as long as you've checked. I heard that BCAAs should be taken separate from other proteins. Just making sure you've done your homework.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:22 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Just making sure you've done your homework.


Always mate! Although, ironically, never when I was at school...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Just my .2 - most of this is determined by your goals and your body. If your on a mission to build then sooner is better than later, but the time frame is relative, and your body will let you know when it needs something ASAP. Based on what Ive read, advice Ive been given, and my own experience for whats worked for me - its a sliding scale of better to worse, there is no right or wrong answer, per se. But good advice has already been given, so I'll leave it at that.


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