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 Post subject: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:47 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Spring is in the air, time to drop a little bodyfat. I already outlined my apporach in a conversation with Dub in another thread, I'll copy and paste that here:


I have carbs with my evening meal. My evening meal is usually HUGE, with a ton of protein and carbs. I like doing it this way because it means I can have pretty much anything I want for dinner and the mrs and I can eat the same thing.

I get a bit more carbs in the form of fruit over the course of the evening as well.

My pre bed meal doesn't contain any carbs when I'm in recomp mode, which I currently am. It's usually meat and something green. My thinking is eating this way will keep insulin sensitivity high as a kite.

I don't stress it though, if I really want carbs I'll have some carbs.

Should also point out I only train fasted/carbless on days where I train in the mornings/afternoons. If I train in the evening I've had my evening meal so I've got some carbs in me. I generally have carbs again in my pre-bed meal on days I train in the evening.

So really, the general philosophy is train fasted when I can, otherwise I just fast for a while after I get up and have no carbs before dinner.


NB - the fasted training is done with BCAAs

So that's it. Starting weight is 190lbs. If I can cut back to 185lbs over the next couple of months while getting stronger I'll be a happy man.

Who's with me? Who among you is man enough?


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:27 am 
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I'm with you once again.

I'm halfway through my periodization plan, which means the focus will now shift towards Max effort and Dynamic effort, away from GPP and hypertrophy. Like I said in the chin-up thread, I accidentally bulked some kilos, and now it's time to trim the fat a little. The weigth target is around 75-80kg. I'll see if I can arrange me some bodyfat numbers and info so I can set a goal there too. All this cutting and getting leaner must happen alongside with getting stronger, so no serious balls to walls -cutting will be done.

I'll use simple carb cycling with more strict at this point. Cutting milk and some fruit intake on low carb days. No grains or similar sides during low-carbs. Just veggies, fats and protein. I have low carbo when I don't train. Simple. And I have one huge carb-loading day per week, so called cheat day with some crappier foods. I do use pre-workout carbs and for PWO, I take leucine, carbs, protein and creatine. I will most likely ramp up the creatine levels within these three months, going from 5g/workout to 5g/day and eventually to 10g/day when going for the 1RM's, that's roughly 12 weeks.

How long will the comp last? To summer? So that we are ready for some Beach Volleyball?

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:19 am 
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robertscott wrote:
Should also point out I only train fasted/carbless on days where I train in the mornings/afternoons.


Fasted Training

I don't see any advantages to fasted training. The bottom line for decreasing body fat is burning more calorie than you take in.

Fasted training does not burn that many more calories.

The key to burning more body fat are intensive workouts that elicit Excess Post Oxygen Consumption.

Training in a fasted state is tantamount to knowing your going to have a heart attack. In a situation like that, taking something before to diminish the effect is much better than not taking anything.

That is the point of ingesting a Pre-Workout Beverage or meal.


Quote:
So really, the general philosophy is train fasted when I can, otherwise I just fast for a while after I get up and have no carbs before dinner.


Intermittant Fasting and decreasing carb intake are tools that work for weight loss. However, it appears along with the drop in weight is a decrease in strength levels.

Low Carbs = Low Testosterone

"...men adhering to a high-carb, low-protein diet had higher testosterone levels after 10 days compared with those who followed a high-protein, low-carb diet." http://www.livestrong.com/article/53511 ... tosterone/

"...the ratio of protein to carbohydrate in the human diet is an important regulatory factor for steroid hormone plasma levels and for liver-derived hormone binding proteins." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976

Reseach indicates that about a 2:1 carbohydrate to protein ratio is necessary to produce the best testosterone prodution.

Decreasing carbohydrates below the 2:1 ratio for too long is going to decrease testosterone production.

Intermittant Fasting

There are some health benefits to this. It also has a place in cutting weight.

However, like low carb diets, you strength levels are going to drop.


Quote:
So that's it. Starting weight is 190lbs. If I can cut back to 185lbs over the next couple of months while getting stronger I'll be a happy man.


A small decrease of 5 lbs over a couple of months may allow you to main you strength, perhaps even increase it.

Quote:
Who among you is man enough?


Man Enough

Robert, I always find this type of comments interesting...how manhood is challanged and the test that other come up with to define if one is "man enough".

The Real Test

One of the best powerlifter of the 1980s was a psychotic guy named Paul Barbee.

Barbee once told me the real test of who was "man enough" was the guy who could deadlift the most repetitions while having someone punch him in the face.

Overall, I'd say Barbee's more definitive.

Evidenlty, I wasn't "man enough" back in the 1980s for Barbee's testing method and I am not "man enough" for your test, now.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:12 am 
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always appreciate your insight Kenny, but I do disagree with a lot of your points. My thinking is:

-I have followed a fasted training protocol in the past. My strength levels went up, bodyfat went down and bodyweight actually increased. I'm hoping for a repeat of this. If there's a loss of strength I'll increase carbs/calories but I don't think there will be. I'm always fine tuning things though so maybe.

-I don't want to get involved in a my-study-is-better-than-your-study exchange, but there is evidence that contradicts the studies you posted. I will use myself as a sample (n=1) and see what happens. If I suffer from low T symptoms, then I'll change something. I don't see it happening though,

-it's also worth noting that my diet is not going to be "low-carb" in the strictest sense. I still take in 150g or so day, sometimes MUCH more if I'm having a cheat day. While that is lower than most strength training individuals, I doubt it'll have any negative effects.

-While I agree that fasted training does not burn much more in the way of calories, I believe that the increase in insulin sensitivity is where its main benefit lies. That also the reason why I am having a carbless post-workout.

so yeah, that's how I see it. I am a big believer in just trying things for yourself, which is what I'm doing. I like experimenting with my diet and training, and this is just my latest experiment.

and the "are you man enough" comment was just banter, not to be taken seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:51 pm
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I'm in.

I've dropped 18 pounds in four weeks - via low carb, so prob 5-10 of that is water. From 238 to 220 on the nose.

T


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Dub wrote:
How long will the comp last? To summer? So that we are ready for some Beach Volleyball?


Well I guess it'll last til summer, but I am going to assess progress weekly. It'll take as long as it takes...

And yeah we'll most definitely be re-enacting the 'playing with the boys" scene from Top Gun

Tuco wrote:
I'm in.

I've dropped 18 pounds in four weeks - via low carb, so prob 5-10 of that is water. From 238 to 220 on the nose.

T


nice work!


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:56 am 
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I'll join you for a 6 week rapid recomp in a couple of weeks, ready for my holiday in Florida! I like going at it hard for a smaller amount of time. I'll be very low carbing 6 days a week, some fasted training, a HIIT and weights circuit session along with low rep stuff to keep strength up (and increase slightly). Not looking forward to the psychological aspect of wanting to eat $h1t. 6 weeks though and I won't even need to pack any tops for Florida!


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:12 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Nevage wrote:
I'll join you for a 6 week rapid recomp in a couple of weeks, ready for my holiday in Florida! I like going at it hard for a smaller amount of time. I'll be very low carbing 6 days a week, some fasted training, a HIIT and weights circuit session along with low rep stuff to keep strength up (and increase slightly). Not looking forward to the psychological aspect of wanting to eat $h1t. 6 weeks though and I won't even need to pack any tops for Florida!


if you can handle it, check out the Rapid Fatloss Handbook by Lyle McDonald. You basically eat nothing but chicken and broccoli for 11 days, then 2 days of eating normal (normal meaning healthy, no binges) then repeat as many times as required.

You train fasted hopped up on ephedrine and caffeine. Looks pretty brutal but it'll work.

It's all online, NIghtfall who used to post here was a big fan. You can get ephedrine from Chest-eze cough medicine.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:46 am 
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Yeah I read that last year. Also, The Stubborn Fat Loss Solution is good (I'll be using the HIIT protocols in there). Also read Carb Nite, The Anabolic and Metabolic Diet, Ultimate Diet 2.0, The Ketogenic Diet.. Can't think of any more but they're all based around the same principles. I've never made it past a week without a refeed though, I feel like I'm going crazy before I have one. Training sessions take longer because of me fantasising over what food i can eat on my refeed, dreams about food etc. It's intense but I don't like fat loss dragging on, it's boring as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:49 am 
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I've never had ephedrine, do you seriously get it from the cough stuff? I wanna buy yohimbine this time round as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:59 am 
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Nevage wrote:
I've never had ephedrine, do you seriously get it from the cough stuff? I wanna buy yohimbine this time round as well.


yup, Chest-eze has I think 18mg per capsule, which is plenty. Don't try and buy too much in the one pharmacy though, they'll get suspicious. Knock it back with an espresso and you'll be buzzing, especially considering you'll not have eaten anything. I know you're no stranger to stimulants, he he...

admittedly, it's not very good for you, but you'll not be using it for long so I'm sure you'll be fine. One thing though, if you're using EC, don't add aspirin like was the norm a few years ago. Rattling a load of aspirin fasted is going to do some serious damage to your stomach, and it apparently doesn't increase the benefit of the stack very much, if at all.

I've not used EC or yohimbine, but people generally report good results from both. If I had to choose I'd probably go with the EC just because it's a little easier to get hold of and I like to drink coffee.

*disclaimer*

robertscott does not condone the use of stimulants for weight loss purposes. All information contained in his posts is for entertainment only


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:01 am 
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Haha interesting stuff. I think I'll check that out then (for entertainment purposes obviously). What extra supps are you gonna be having? I have some Tyrosine at home too for the Stubborn Fat Loss HIIT protocols. Something to do with it helping with an increase in fatty acid mobilisation in areas where there are less receptors (stubborn fat areas, waist, bum etc), something along those lines anyway, it's a quick read if you want it? I'll read it again soon to refresh.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:54 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Na I don't really use a lot of supps, which is ironic considering I work in a supplement shop. I just use BCAAs and glutamine pre-training. I don't even drink whey, it doesn't agree with me at all. Eat the occasional protein bar if I am out and about and need a snack.

Most of the supps I use are health supps like fish oil, ZMA, vit D. Just the usual stuff really. Never used any fat burner type stuff except coffee. I will one day when I decide to do a full on cut, but for the time being I'm lean enough that gentle recomps are adequate.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:40 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I've kinda beat you to it.

Started cleaning up my act in Dec. Weighed over 190 (heaviest reading I got was 196, or in our terms, 14stone).

Now 175 and stronger. Apparently I look bigger - people keep asking if i've bulked up. Must be those 3 sets of curls per week.

I also have a visible vein on my bicep, which is impressive when you consider my pasty white complexion.

I'm going to keep it up. Basically, I don't eat any crap. I carb up post work out and sometimes don't even do that. Depends how I feel. If I feel "depleted" I do a ridiculous carb up i.e. pizza etc - this happens around once per week and, interestingly, i'm always lighter the day after. I only do it if I genuinely feel depleted, though. It's as if my body is screaming for pizza.

I don't track what I eat, I just eat as much as I can whilst limiting "heavy" carbs (anything other than veg). Most meals are eggs or meat (or both) with veg. I purposely try and eat lots of fat. I choose fatty meat when I can, I use lots of butter whenever I can find an excuse, I eat all my egg yolks, I drizzle everything I can with olive oil, I take fish oil.

Protein, veg and fat, basically.

Supps are simply fish oil and normally there's a protein shake in and around the work out but, not always.

I fast between 5-7 hours every night :wink: depending on how much sleep I get.

Other than just training more efficiently (sometimes, I even get out of breath during a session), this is all i've done. I'm going to keep doing this but add 2 conditioning days to my training. Would like to be 160 but ripped with my current strength.

I've noticed that my lower abs are pretty much visible now, but I still have lower back/love handle fat. I don't this happened the last time I got this lean, i'm sure lower abs were the last place to get lean.

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:50 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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you got up to 14st? You chubster.

It's good that you're leaning out though man, you'll dominate the lighter weight classes if you keep your strength levels.

the lighter weight after a cheat meal can supposedly be explained by you resetting your leptin levels. Low carb for too long leads to leptin depletion, which slows fat loss. A big carb up resets your leptin which gets you losing weight again, apparently. My favourite thing about a big carb up is how full and awesome your muscles feel after.

Got some more science for ya: the difference in fat distribution is apparently due to hormones. Poliquin goes on about it, and has dedicated a whole system called bio-signature to explaining it. It's pretty interesting. I know a fitness model who is RIPPED year round. He had his hormone profile analysed by a Poliquin certified bio-sig guy and lost 2% fat pretty much overnight, which is really impressive considering there is hardly an ounce of fat on the guy anyway. He does loads of photo shoots so has to stay photo shoot lean constantly.

so the new healthy diet may have given you a healthier hormone profile. Not too shabby


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