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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:36 am 
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yes, i know that he used to be a powerlifter. and in these times he was strong, but then he started focussing on bodybuilding and imo couldn't ever hit his PRs again.

your words are true for most people, but there is no doubt that a guy with such huge muscles like schwarzenegger had, would suck at every complex sport, cause he can't be consired athletic anymore, which is the key skill for many sports.

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:17 am 
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Get a prowler.

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:35 am 
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hoosegow wrote:
Get a prowler.

See? Squatting and deadlifting are not Hoose's only solution to every problem!

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:57 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
hoosegow wrote:
Get a prowler.

See? Squatting and deadlifting are not Hoose's only solution to every problem!

:laughing3:

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:36 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Haha well i didn't mean to turn this into a thread about Schwarzenneger, but a lot of good info came from it!


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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:51 am 
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Yip... Huge muscles and training like a body builder mean you will lose all athletic ability and most of your flexibility.



Worth watching.

Also worth watching sprinters. Do people realise how much muscle mass sprinters have? And most of these guys squat, and squat big.

Chris Hoy squats 500lbs and has massive thighs but it doesn't seem to hinder him (actually it benefits him).

Anyway, excuse the sarcasm, I just hate the myth that bigger or stronger muscles will slow you down or screw with your athletic ability. It's like saying, "hey, you could have a bigger, more powerful, more robust, and faster engine, but it would probably slow you down when you get out on that track" - it really is like saying this.

Not many bodybuilders pose like Kai Green but, most at a high level go through posing routines that are actually very challenging from a movement perspective. I know Arnie used to hire a Ballet teacher, too.

They're not able to do things like play rugby at a high level because that's not what they do or train for. I train primarily for strength - I forget I can call myself a Powerlifter now. However I'm hopeless at Cricket. Never played it, don't want to play it, don't train for it. However that doesn't mean strength training will hinder someones ability to play cricket.

I'm not sure strength training, done properly, would hinder anything. Strength is specific to everything. I can't think of one sport or activity where Weakness is desired.

Kind of went off on a tangent... :scratch:

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:03 am 
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unfortunately video is blocked in germany cause of copyright issues.

i never said that bigger muscles or more strength make you worse at sports. it of course makes you better at the most sports. but i still think that you can reach a point, where you are too huge for some sports. for soccer it is like that. there are some players that are too huge and then you see that they suck at some movements. the best muscular players are very strong and huge, but they are way smaller than an elite bodybuilder.

if you would still be able to be a good soccer player with a bodybuilder body, then there would be players with bodies like that, cause more muscle mass could give you an advantage as a defender or striker.

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:03 am 
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KPj wrote:
I know Arnie used to hire a Ballet teacher, too.


Image

One of my clients used to be a professional dancer, with his own troupe IIRC. He's choreographed at least one posing routine for a bodybuilder that placed first. (not sure how to phrase that?)

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:33 am 
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ephs wrote:
unfortunately video is blocked in germany cause of copyright issues.

i never said that bigger muscles or more strength make you worse at sports. it of course makes you better at the most sports. but i still think that you can reach a point, where you are too huge for some sports. for soccer it is like that. there are some players that are too huge and then you see that they suck at some movements. the best muscular players are very strong and huge, but they are way smaller than an elite bodybuilder.

if you would still be able to be a good soccer player with a bodybuilder body, then there would be players with bodies like that, cause more muscle mass could give you an advantage as a defender or striker.


I probably didn't explain myself very clearly.

What I mean is, just because an elite bodybuilder won't make a good soccer/rugby/whatever player, doesn't mean training to get stronger and bigger is not good for sports.

Soccer (I call it football, due to the ball being round, and the need to use your "feet". In avoidance of doubt, this is a tongue in cheek dig at those across the pond). Anyway, Soccer is generally way behind with strength & conditioning. It's painful. Same with Boxing and mma. It's definitely improving but it's so slow. I'm not aware of any soccer players who are "too big", though - i've seen a lot that have more bodyfat than they probably should, but none with too much muscle. I'm not sure i've even seen a soccer player with as much muscle mass as the average sprinter. I'm not saying they should have but, it makes you think about the "slowing down" thing.

A soccer play will never look a competing bodybuilder because they have too much soccer training to do. When the soccer player is doing sport specific training and conditioning, the body builder is doing even more bodybuilding training (plus, eating the soccer players weekly intake in about 1 day). For a soccer player to even stand a chance of having a glimmer of hope at being a competitive bodybuilder at a decent level, they would need to give up soccer. And if a bodybuilder decided to take up Soccer, they would need to sacrifice a lot of their current training in place of sport specific training. I'm pretty much saying it's near impossible for a soccer player to train for soccer and get "too big" at the same time. It would take something very special, anyway... Almost going back on this statement because I like to believe nothing is impossible.

I actually agree that you can hit a ceiling when training Strength for sport specific performance. You shouldn't train a soccer or rugby player for a powerlifting competition - there's definitely a line. It's just very difficult get there, it takes years.

Most soccer (and rugby) players would have much better conditioning if they just got stronger. If the program was specific enough, they would have fewer aches and pains, too.

Also, re-reading this, I don't want to create the wrong impression - I DO think most athletes need to get stronger and if that means more muscle mass as a result, then so be it (some can't afford more muscle mass if they are sticking to a weight class). However, I wouldn't train an athlete like a bodybuilder - there's a crazy thought process that anything involving resistance training, strength, or hypertrophy means "bodybuilding" however bodybuilding is a sport/art in itself and should be trained as such.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:42 am 
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stuward wrote:
ephs wrote:
...
schwarzenegger was a bodybuilder and he for sure sucked at playing rugby, cause he was too weak for his total weight and you can't have a good movement with huge muscles like he had. ...


I don't know if Arnold ever aspired to play rugby but the rest of this is wrong. Arnold was a powerlifter first and very strong. Also movement and size are not mutually exclusive. Proper strength training will increase flexibility and mobility. You're repeating myths.


Arnie was weak for his size? 400lbs bench at 230lbs bodyweight. Hmmm. What you benching these days ephs? That's a rhetorical question, don't bother answering.

Also, he competed in Olympic lifting. Olympic lifters are among the most explosive and mobile athletes on the planet. Can't have good movement eh? Hmmm.

Tom Platz had the biggest legs in history, could squat 500lbs 23 times and could do the splits. Isn't that good mobility and movement while being pretty damn strong "for his size" or for anyone's size?

Kai Greene can breakdance at close to 300lbs.

Roelly Winklaar can do a backflip. He weighs over 270lbs.

It's nonsense like this that made me put ephs on ignore. He knows nothing about anything yet gives his opinion on EVERYTHING.

Now, the rest of you can please stop quoting him kthanxbye


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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:08 pm 
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pls take less steroids, dude.

i can just say that many many guys with a weight of 230lbs are way stronger than schwarzenegger was.

the examples are also ridiculous. the movements mentioned are kind of simple movements and can't be compared to a complex sport like soccer or rugby.

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:36 pm 
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I think ephs is now mixing movement skill with some other important physical abilities. I think this is more of a speed/agility thing. There's no point to say that footballers or rugby players are mobile/flexible. Also there's no point saying that muscle mass impairs movement. That's dumb. Football or rugby don't need specific movement skills, but abilities.

Arnold or any other Pro lifters...Were they agile or fast? No. Most likely explosive, but not fast or agile. Why? Because they didn't want to be, nor did they want to train those skills either.

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:35 pm 
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ephs wrote:
i can just say that many many guys with a weight of 230lbs are way stronger than schwarzenegger was.


According to the ex.rx strength standards, a 220 pound man who can bench press 380 lbs (and a 240 lb man who can bench press 395) is an elite lifter. Schwarzenegger could bench 400 lbs 8 or more times in a set during his prime.

Schwarzenegger was far from a weakling - it's just that his training was geared to increasing his size rather than his strength. He believed that the heavy volume that he used in his training actually increased the number of muscle fibers in his body. That goes against the conventional wisdom that the number of muscle fibers in a person's body is fixed at birth.

Whether volume training increases the actual number of muscle fibers can be debated. What can't be debated is that volume training for strength is an inefficient use of time for an athlete who is looking to get stronger for his sport. That athlete using how Schwarzenegger felt after a workout as a measure of success makes no sense.

Hopefully,this thread won't get locked down. I have my worries, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Rugby Workout
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
Hopefully,this thread won't get locked down. I have my worries, though.


quite possibly, I won't post again just in case.


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