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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:07 am 
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yes, they could work like a dynamic stretch and this approach of working on flexibility within the exercises is great. i'm still unsure, if it would be better to do rack pulls, cause they could strengthen the body more for conventional deadlifts, and work on stretching separately.

cressey says in his deadlift articles on t-nation that you could work your hamstring mobility up from rack pulls to trap bar dl to sumo dl to conventional dl. maybe that's a better way than doing a lot of stretching beside working out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:31 am 
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I actually learned to deadlift via Eric Cresseys online training service. The best I could come up with before then was a rounded back 265lbs pull, and confusion over what the exercise was supposed to do other than hurt my back.

The progression started with rack pulls from just below the knee cap and with a tempo. I'm not big on slowing down the tempo, particularly on the concentric but, when learning a new movement it's very valuable to force yourself into a slower tempo on both eccentric and concentric to really take ownership of technique. Anyway, we just worked down over the course of a couple of months. After pulling off a slight elevation we went to sumo DL's, after this we went to conventional from the floor. However, those slow rack pulls were invaluable for me in learning how to load the hips.

When I started training people I used a similar approach. However, logistically it wasn't great because getting a rack all the time or a place to set up blocks was never guaranteed at the times I typically train people (peek time). This is initially why I started using RDL's as the first in the deadlift progression. Actually it was partial RDL's, down to just below the knee cap. Reason being, this part of the ROM is all hips and this is what everyone struggles with. I use enough load to create a training effect for 5-8 reps. When client gets more confident I increase ROM - and now we can allow the knees to travel forward a little, but weight should still remain back on the heels.

This is one of the best things i've changed. It makes life easier for me and the client.

Then, when they can do RDL's with 60KG/135lbs (a big plate each side), I got them to pull from the floor. It was a lot easier as I could just say, "RDL yourself down to the bar", then a couple of set-up cues and we have a perfect DL.

Recently though, i've added a slight elevation before pulling from the floor. Just put a couple of weight discs down and take the bar off this.

The "set up" in a deadlift is crucial, and this is what you miss with an RDL - getting set up. The RDL actually leads you into a good set up and starting position but to DL from the floor you need to be ablet to find it without RDL'ing it. This is also why some people can be fine with RDL's but not with rack pulls - you need to set up a rack pull. So i've added a slight elevation between RDL and DL's from the floor because it's easier getting set up with the bar (or floor) a little higher. When set up is mastered from a slight elevation and after the RDL progression, then clients will pull from the floor, and when they do you would think they had been deadliftng for years.

KPj

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:44 am 
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big thx for this great reply. your approach sounds very good. do your approach also increase the flexibility, cause you move up the ROM step by step or which stretching routine do you recommend?

i decided to give elevated deadlifts a try, cause i hope that i don't need to go more back in the "learning of deadlifting"-steps. elevated deadlifts worked good today. maybe i can do them for some weeks and then go back to conventional DLs again. if this doesn't work, i should try some RDLs. maybe i could mix in some high rep sets of RDLs to increase the hamstring flexibility.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:41 pm 
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New member here. I found this thread through google. I've always struggled with correcting my deadlift form and have now read pretty much everything on the topic the internet has to offer. I've got to say that this thread is the best I've read.

KPj wrote:
When I started training people I used a similar approach. However, logistically it wasn't great because getting a rack all the time or a place to set up blocks was never guaranteed at the times I typically train people (peek time). This is initially why I started using RDL's as the first in the deadlift progression. Actually it was partial RDL's, down to just below the knee cap. Reason being, this part of the ROM is all hips and this is what everyone struggles with. I use enough load to create a training effect for 5-8 reps. When client gets more confident I increase ROM - and now we can allow the knees to travel forward a little, but weight should still remain back on the heels.

This is one of the best things i've changed. It makes life easier for me and the client.

Then, when they can do RDL's with 60KG/135lbs (a big plate each side), I got them to pull from the floor. It was a lot easier as I could just say, "RDL yourself down to the bar", then a couple of set-up cues and we have a perfect DL.


How far beyond the knee-caps do you aim for before you switch to the rack-pull?
Did you have any clients that struggled to increase flexibility beyond a certain point? If so, how did you resolve this?

I tried the rack-pull method beginning just above knee height and gradually reducing the bar. I eventually seemed to hit a stonewall and eventually quit through frustration. My approach was pretty ad hoc though. Weights, reps and sets were never monitored too much. I was almost completely focused on form and depth.

I'm basically in the same boat as you were before you signed up to Eric Cressey's online training. I was pulling 140kg off the ground and getting back ache. It was only when I started recording myself that I saw just how bad my form was.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:28 am 
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jmacchina wrote:
New member here. I found this thread through google. I've always struggled with correcting my deadlift form and have now read pretty much everything on the topic the internet has to offer. I've got to say that this thread is the best I've read.


Welcome to the forum :cheers:


jmacchina wrote:
How far beyond the knee-caps do you aim for before you switch to the rack-pull?


For RDL's, I like to work towards lowering to mid-shin, similar to where you would start on a DL from the floor. I work on ROM first and use enough weight for them to feel the exercise working, but still maintain good control and technique. I also slow them down a little. When they're lowering the bar to mid shin, I then focus more on getting stronger/adding weight, until they're using 60KG/135lbs.

I don't rush them, though. I want them perfect, and I want clients to feel their hips being loaded. When you are at the start of the RDL, standing up tall, I want hips thrusted forward into the bar, chest out and chin tucked. Like a perfect "lockout" on a deadlift from the floor. Then you just imagine closing an invisible door with your a$$. Keep the lower back arched and reach back with the a$$. When it's right, you will feel your hamstrings stretch as you reach back with the hips. This is loading the hips. Like a sling shot, pulling back the hamstrings, then you thrust the glutes forward.

Spend some time and be patient with this - it'll pay off.

When you can "feel" your hips being loaded, and you can "feel" that your back is arched, then you will "feel" when your lower back rounds, and that's half the battle. At this point, the other half of the battle is just leaving your ego at the door, because if you lift horribly, you're doing so on purpose for the sake of numbers.

Stay out of the mindset of constantly trying to "test" lifts. Think about "building" them instead. RDL's are a great foundation to build your DL technique on. There's a time and place to test lifts. When you're still learning basic technique, it's not a good time to test. But you can (and should) build!

Also, my system for this now is - RDL's as described. Then deadlifts with the bar elevated 4 inches. I use small steps. So it's not quite a rack pull but not quite a DL from the floor. It's easier to learn set up and getting tight. You've already built the ROM/flexibility with RDL's. When your set up is good, I go to the floor.

So it's - RDL's -> Deadlifts from (4inch) blocks -> Deadlifts from floor.

jmacchina wrote:
Did you have any clients that struggled to increase flexibility beyond a certain point? If so, how did you resolve this?


Loads! Pretty much the majority of males i've ever had deadlift!

Do you have a "dynamic warm up" ? This, basically, is how I smash hip mobility. If a client has crazy restrictions i'll ask them to do 2-3 warm up movements every day. The movements depend on the issues, though...

KPj

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