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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:53 am 
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Hey guys!
ill try to do this as quick and to the point as possible but first ty for reading.

Age: 24
hight: 182
Weight ~76
Goal: build muscle mass

alright - so next week ill be headed back to the gym after 3 long years. as u can tell from my height and weight my BMI is around 22.5 and i feel comfortable with the amount of fat i have, and think it won't "hide" the muscles ill build too much.

i intend to go to the gym around 3 times a week, at least as a start to make sure i don't over-do it and lose my drive. im also not really into AB plans - but will listen to any advice.

first month will be spent with all-around exercises, what ever the trainer tells me to do to make sure my whole body works and gets used to weights - after that i have compiled this routine in hopes that it will help me reach my goal. exercises are in no particular order as far as i know (all exercises names are as they are in the ExRex Dictionary):

1. Barbell Deadlift
2. Barbell Full Squat
3. Barbell Bench Press
4. Pull-up (worried it might be too hard at first, since there is no assisted stand in the gym)
5. Chest Dip (between benches) - since there is no assisted, will do non-assisted when stronger
6. Barbell Military Press
7. Sit-up (which i do a-bit diffrently)
8. lower back Hyperextension (will start from lying down and raise back before moving to something like the pic in the "Hyperextension" exrecise")

for exercises 1-6, i thought of doing as i was taught 3 years ago, 3 sets of 8, and reaching "fail" on last 1-2 returns on last set.

Ofc i intend to make sure to have a healthy diet, sleep well at night for around 8 hours when possible and also on taking Creatine chews.

ANY COMMENTS, IDEAS, TIPS WILL BE WELCOME!

thank you!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:46 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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the exercises you've picked are fine, however you need to include some kind of row. You're doing a lot of pressing movements so you really ned a row to keep your shoulders healthy and posture good.

It's also a helluva lot of exercises to do in one go. Consider splitting them up somehow.

I have never heard of creatine chews.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:42 am 
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Caniv wrote:
...
Goal: build muscle mass
...
first month will be spent with all-around exercises, what ever the trainer tells me to do to make sure my whole body works and gets used to weights - after that i have compiled this routine in hopes that it will help me reach my goal. exercises are in no particular order as far as i know (all exercises names are as they are in the ExRex Dictionary):

1. Barbell Deadlift
2. Barbell Full Squat
3. Barbell Bench Press
4. Pull-up (worried it might be too hard at first, since there is no assisted stand in the gym)
5. Chest Dip (between benches) - since there is no assisted, will do non-assisted when stronger
6. Barbell Military Press
7. Sit-up (which i do a-bit diffrently)
8. lower back Hyperextension (will start from lying down and raise back before moving to something like the pic in the "Hyperextension" exrecise")

for exercises 1-6, i thought of doing as i was taught 3 years ago, 3 sets of 8, and reaching "fail" on last 1-2 returns on last set....


Not much to add to robertscotts answer... If you want to concentrate little more on the "mainlifts" you could do: Squat, Deadlift, Bench Press, Bent-over Row, Military Press (all with Barbell) and Pull-ups. (As I understand it, hyperextensions would aim mainly on the lower back, which are trained with deadlifts already. And as I learned here, the Chest Dip would aim at most of the muscles that are already trained with the Bench Press.)

From my experience, as a beginner too, you will train the core enough with these "mainlifts" in order to stabilize your body.

I would then add some crunches (planks or something else for your waist) and even later the Triceps Dips... but at that time... you will probably think about splitting your workout, like robertscott already suggested.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:09 am 
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Hey guys! ty so much for the answer.

true, Deadlift covers everythig Hyperextension does, so that's out. down to 21 sets.

robertscott, would you mind recommending some good complex Row exercises? good posture and healthy shoulders are a first for me before any muscle mass.
i thought about "Cable Straight Back Seated Row" it seems VERY nice.

Crow, it true that Chest Dip is a double for some things, but i am a-bit reluctent to give up on chest dip. but i guess that if ill see i cant finish the workout in 1 hour or less ill have to let something go...

when i wrote "sit ups" i meant crunches.
and Triceps Dips and chest dip seem nearly exactly the same to me, i cant tell the difference in how to perform them honestly =/

one other question i forgot to, and NEED to ask... how much time should i reset between each set?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:20 am 
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rows are just anything where you pull towards yourself horizontally. So dumbell rows, barbell rows, cable rows etc. They'll all work


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:14 am 
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thanks ill see what the gym has, if theres a cable like the one i saw - ill do that.

any idea on time between sets?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:06 am 
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Caniv wrote:
thanks ill see what the gym has, if theres a cable like the one i saw - ill do that.

any idea on time between sets?


Google 'Starting Strength' or 'Stronglifts'. They are program's written for beginners. You can't go wrong following either of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:31 am 
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Caniv wrote:
for exercises 1-6, i thought of doing as i was taught 3 years ago, 3 sets of 8, and reaching "fail" on last 1-2 returns on last set.


Robert and Crow provided you with some good information.

Going To Failure

This will work for a little while, since you are "new after 3 years". However, pushing yourself to failure during every workout at some point is counter productive.

If you perform the same exercises to failure three times a week leads to overreacing and eventually overtraining. You will either stop making progress and even lose ground.

Hard training provides stress. When provided enough time the body recovers and becomes stronger.

When the body is NOT allowed enough recovery time, you become weaker, lose size, etc.

The key is to stress the muscle then allow them time to recovery. Growth in size and stretch occurs during recovery/rest periods.

Suggestion

Break you three day a week program down into a:

1) Heavy Hard Training Day

2) Moderate Training Day

3) Light Training Day

Periodization Training

After using the same training program for 4-6 weeks (exercises, repetition, sets, rest periods, etc), change things up.

Ice Cream

Chaning thing up can be as simple as going from a narrow stance squat to a wide stance squat, going from regular deadifts to back rasies, going from a wide grip bench press to a narrow grip bench press, incline press, etc.

Chaning your squat stance, bench press grip width is like ice cream.

A wide stance squat being let's say vanilla, a narrow stance being chocolate.

With both ice cream, they are different flavors.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:47 am 
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Proper Knob wrote:
Caniv wrote:
thanks ill see what the gym has, if theres a cable like the one i saw - ill do that.

any idea on time between sets?


Google 'Starting Strength' or 'Stronglifts'. They are program's written for beginners. You can't go wrong following either of them.


Starting Strength is a good program for beginners. The program is basically Bill Starr's old program.

No wonder, since Starr was one of Rippetoe mentors as well as mine.

However, one of the problems is that the majority of those posting on the forum (message board) providing advice are beginners or advance beginners.

That means the majority of the advice is coming from those who really don't have much knowledge. So, information from the majority of that group are the "Blind leading the blind."

This is site attracts a more knowledgeable group.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:05 am 
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well i have to admit im way more confused than i was when i started the thread ;P

what i don't get is, I've trained before and grew nicely. it seems to me like the medium and easy days will be time i wasted that i could've pushed myself further, or maybe im not understanding.

1. Heavy workout day - Push self to maximum, reach failure, rip body apart, go home with a smile.
2.normal day - have a hard workout, a little less weight than heavy day just enough to finish work out with some energy
3. easy day, another lb or 2 off, for a day i workout but just to keep body in motion?

sorry for all the questions, i know you guys are prolly right and that's what confuses me since i've never heard of 3 diff workout days (effort wise)

on more thing, if i take my 8 exercises workout, and split it into A and B (3 times a week), will that mean i won't have to do the easy/mid/hard day thing? and also will that mean ill progress slower?

P.S
about changing. if i like my exercises, can i just have 2 "sets" of changes? for example, 6 weeks of Wide squat, wide bench, and bla bla bla, and after 6 weeks do same things but not wide grips, and after 6 weeks again wide? or do i have to re-invent the wheel every 6 weeks?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:45 am 
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Caniv wrote:
well i have to admit im way more confused than i was when i started the thread ;P

what i don't get is, I've trained before and grew nicely. it seems to me like the medium and easy days will be time i wasted that i could've pushed myself further, or maybe im not understanding.
...?


As you progress through your training, progress will slow down and the training complexity required to continue improving increases. There are training adaptations from working often and others from high volume and high intensity. You need to vary your program to allow all of these to play out but you can't hit all at once, or you would burn out. The High, medium, low cycle is a way to do that and is suitable for advanced beginner and intermediate trainees.

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Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:11 am 
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Rest--people training for hypertrophy and endurance tend to use shorter rest periods (30-90 sec?). Those training for max strength tend to use longer rests, basically until they feel ready for the next set, even if that's 6 or 8 minutes. This is something that will be more clear with experience--make a plan to try for a while, then vary it and see how the results vary.

Confusion--that's common. In fact we're all confused most of the time! :) There is a lot of information to absorb. Sometimes we give advice using terminology that has a clear definition in training circles, but may not be clear to a someone new to training. And exercise is a really complex activity, and discussing it can get complex. Nothing makes it all clear as much as experience. If you train faithfully, keep thinking, read a lot (and try to sort out which writers to believe), a year or two from now things will be much more clear. Not absolutely clear, but more so.

Changing--you don't have to reinvent the wheel each time. You don't have to change your whole routine. Like Kenny said, just try a different flavor once in a while. It doesn't have to be exactly 6 weeks, although many of us plan our training in 4-week or 6-week blocks, so something like that is convenient. So if you have been doing flat barbell bench for a while, you might change to incline or decline bench, or dumbbell bench, that sort of thing. Or just change your rep-set scheme (how many sets of how many reps). You might just change a couple of your lifts at a time, or sometimes change more. As you gain experience this will become intuitive.

Heavy/Moderate/Light
You misquoted Kenny. You said "heavy, normal, easy". You don't get it. A light day isn't easy. It can be every bit as difficult as a heavy day. Heavy, moderate and light refers to the bar loading. Study Matt Zito's training log for an example. You'll probably use less volume on your heavy days, more on your mod days, and even more on the light days. So on your heavy day you might do 3x3 with what is for you a fairly heavy weight. The first set will be fairly east to complete, the second will be tougher, and on the last set you'll feel like after the third rep that you could get a couple more if you really grunted it out, but don't grunt it out. On mod day you may do 5x3 with somewhat less weight. The first set of 5 will be fairly easy to complete, the second harder and on the fifth rep of the third set you'll fell like you could get a couple of more reps if you really grunted it out and allowed form to slip, but don't do it. On light day you might do 3 sets of 10 with even lighter weight. The first set will be easy to finish. The second will be harder. On the third set those last few reps will be pretty tough because you will have completely depleted your energy. By that last rep you'll fell like you could get one or two more reps if you were willing to let form go and really grunt it out, but don't do that.

In your post when you mentioned heavy day you said "Push self to maximum, reach failure, rip body apart, go home with a smile." If you do that very often you'll wipe yourself out in a hurry. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Train in a way that you can sustain for a lifetime, not just for a few weeks.

Having said that, on your isolation lifts or accessory work, it's not such a big deal to go to failure more often, it won't take as much out of our CNS as it would on the compound lifts. Here's a useful article: http://jasonferruggia.com/training-to-failure-part-1/
Here's part 2 of the same article:http://jasonferruggia.com/training-to-failure-part-2-lessons-from-the-old-school/
Here's another:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_thib_system_8212_fatigue_and_best_exercises
So most of the time you should be leaving a little in the tank. Never go beyond what you can do with good form, except on an occasional max test. Even then, if you've been training with good form, it won't slip much.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:35 am 
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I've said this before, but I keep touting it:

Going to failure every workout will eventually kill your nervous system and burn you out/stop your progress. Getting yourself to near-death condition doesn't mean you did a good workout. You have to work SMART. You can get great gains with much lower intensity and volume as well. I always quote this one piece of research: You get the same benefits by working to a near failure (1-3 reps left in the tank), as you would by working to a total failure. Without constantly overloading the CNS. So why would you always work to failure? There's a time and place for failure as well, but it's should be SMART.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:56 am 
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Caniv wrote:
...Crow, it true that Chest Dip is a double for some things, but i am a-bit reluctent to give up on chest dip. but i guess that if ill see i cant finish the workout in 1 hour or less ill have to let something go...

...and Triceps Dips and chest dip seem nearly exactly the same to me, i cant tell the difference in how to perform them honestly...


Try to compare the exercises on the exrx-main-page... How vertical is your upper body while doing them? When I keep my upper body ("strictly") vertical (keeping my hips straight), the load goes more on the triceps. The more I lean over (bend knees and hips), the nearer I get into some kind of push-up position and can feel my chest working more and more. Of course this is not an "on/off-switch" going only "chest or triceps"... just try for yourself...

(On the main-page are also articles on "low volume training" and "light/heavy-training", if you are still sceptical in spite of the suggestions made - at the moment I`m quite happy that I trusted and followed the suggestions, I got here... they work well for me so far. And if they don`t work well anymore, I will change something to adapt to the new situation.)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:25 am 
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You guys are AMAZING! and i can't believe how nice and helpful this community is.

even tho it seems a little counter-intuative i realize that you know best, and if you say that i should do 3 diff days a week with diff loads and still gain as much
as i can strength and mass wise, and most imporatnly, stay healthy and get healthier, i trust u entirely - and thank you all.

i prolly will spend the 1st month doing whatever the trainer tells me just to help my body "understand" im going to start working out.
but after that i really wanna ask what is best for me reps and sets wise?

should i do exactly as Jungledoc said? 3 every gym day, once 3 reps once 5 and once 10?
or can i start (at least for the first month) with 5 8 10? so i don't put to much pressure on my body and i do
want to make sure i learn the mechanics of all the exercises i do.. if im not mistaken some of the ones i chose
aren't very simple, Press, deadlift, they need to be done 100% right in order for me not to harm myself.

ty again


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