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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Tweaked my routine a bit and as a result I do DLs only once a week.
5x5 work-sets across with 1 or 2 warm-up sets (first exercise on that day)

Is that too infrequent? any negatives to this?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:26 am 
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No. 5x5 is a fairly high volume for DL.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:08 pm 
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once per week is totally fine. i would also cut it down to 1-2 max. work sets of deadlifts per week.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:06 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
any negatives to this?


only if your goal is getting proficient at deadlifting multiple times per week


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:03 am 
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emil3m wrote:
Tweaked my routine a bit and as a result I do DLs only once a week.
5x5 work-sets across with 1 or 2 warm-up sets (first exercise on that day)

Is that too infrequent? any negatives to this?

Thanks!


The Lower Back

As Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics) noted, the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

Preriperal Exercise

What many fail to realize is that the lower back (core) is involved standing exercises: Squats (heavy lower back involved), Overhead Press, Standing Curl, Bent Over Rows (Bent over with a barbell/dumbell), etc.

So, you end up working the lower back to some degree during the week. That means your lower back is getting more work than you probably realize.

"It Take More Than It Give Back."

In a converstaion with Louie Simmons (Westside Training), we discussing deadlifting. Simmons' stated that the deadlift is a draining movement.

That is why the deadlift is trained heavily infrequently (not as often). Most powerlifters train the deadlift once a week. Heavy deadlifts are about once every three to four weeks.

The NO 'Deadlift" Deadlift Program
http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-Dead ... _51-1.html

I am a powerlifter who stopped training the deadlift back in 1998. I ended up replacing the deadlift with Heavy Good Mornings and Olympic pulls.

Heavy Good Mornings (for whatever reason) don't beat you lower back up that much. Your lower back recovers faster...meaning an increase in strength and some size.

Auxiliary Deadlift Movements

These movements are simlar to the deadlift but don't beat up you lower back to the same extent as the deadlift.

What is interesting is each of these has a different strength curve.

1) Good Mornings. This has an Ascending Strength Cuve, like the deadlift. It is hard at the beginning and then gets easier the higher you go.

The Good Morning strengthens you deadlift off the floor.

2) 45 Degree Back Raise. This as Bell Shaped Strength Curve. It is easy at the beginning, hard in the middle and easy at the end of the movement.

45 Degree Back Raises strengthen you deadlift in the knee area.

3) Horizonal Back Raise. This has a Descending Strength Curve. It is easy at the beginning and middle and hard at the end.

Horizonal Back Raises strengthen the finishing top part of you deadlift.

Ascending Strenth Curves and Variable Resistance

Attaching Chains, Bands and/or Bungees to Olympic Bars works for Ascending Strength Curve Exercises: Deadlifts, Stilff Leg (slight break in knees), and Good Mornings.

What I do is pefrom Good Mornings with chains, bands and/or bungees. By doing so, I work more the of muscle in the Good Morning from the low to top position.

Descending/Bell Shape Strength Curves

Attaching chains, bands and/or bungees to these strength curve movements is counter productive. The easy part of the movement remains easy with you make the harder part even harder.

"Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect." Lombardi

As Ocar states, to get good at deadlifting, you need to practice.

However, the key to getting good is pulling single repetitions with 85% plus of your 1 Repetition Max. Lower training percentages don't really help that much with technique.

The problem with using 85% of your 1RM with any movement is burn out. This is especially true with the lower back and deadlifting.

So, technique training need to be limited to allow for recovery.

5 X 5 Deadlifts

I agree with Jungledoc. That is a lot of volume for the lower back.

Ephs provides some good information. However, I wouldn't push the deadlift with heavy singles ever week.

Deadlift Training Alternative

If you simply want to use the deadlift to strengthen those muscle groups, the deadlift will work for you.

However, if you want to increase you deadift strength here's my recommendation.

Technique Training

One a week pull Deadlifts for single repetitions of 3-5 sets. Use progressive loading. Pull 70%, one week, then 80%, then 90%.

Drop with weight down the fourth week. /hen start over. Base you 70% on your new training max.

Strength Training

Use one of the auxiliary exerices above that replicates the deadlift movement. Train this exercise fairly hard.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Thanks for the great info everybody! I want to give a bit more context to where I stand and see what you think.

Not that long ago, I started with a bare bar for all the main lifts in order to find the right groove (studied Rippetoes videos for that). All the work sets are equally intense across. Been using quarter-pounders to progress in 5lb increments (almost each time so far). My dead is at a humble 165 right now, so the info in this thread is timely.

Goals. About a 50/50 balance between increasing lean mass and strength. Being fit/athletic and feeling/looking good. Certainly never thought about increasing 1RM or even identified what is my 1RM.

I really like Good Mornings. It feels great and I can feel the form being great. Plus I'm very aware of where the focus is--lower back or hams--based on how my knees are.

Kenny, I am keeping this in mind:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
If you simply want to use the deadlift to strengthen those muscle groups, the deadlift will work for you.

I will post my program in the next post. It does look like you listed almost every exercise in my program as something that works the lower back. So, given what I said above, would it be better to simply do 5x5 GM instead of DL? Or some sort of rotation/combination? Would be nice if I can keep doing work sets across with progression upon successful completion. Available equipment: full cage, bench, BB, heavy DBs.

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Last edited by emil3m on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:51 am, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Mon & Fri: 5x5 squat
Wed: 5x5 deadlift

The rest rotates ABA BAB
A:
5x5 standing press, 4x6 weighted chin
supersets (3x8-12):
rear-delt DB row+hanging leg raise
weighted dip+curl
B:
5x5 bench, 4x6 DB row
supersets (3x8-12):
lat-delt raise+incl. twisting crunch
weighted dip+curl

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:20 am 
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My opinion has changed somewhat on the lower back and volume in general.

Over the last year or so i've slowly increased the volume of deadlifting, squatting and lower back work I do. I think a lot of powerlifters have very poor conditioning because we live under this false belief that conditioning doesn't matter for strength. I also think (well, know) a lot of powerlifters regularly lift with bad technique. Ugly lifts take longer to recover from. Especially of you injure something.

I've made it a focus to build technique on the powerlifts then get the real intensity through volume via assistance exercises.

For example, Saturday I got 3 doubles on conventional DL with 430lbs (that's 85%) then 3 hard sets of 5 sumo dl's, finishing with 5 @ 400lbs (I weigh 180). All without a belt and all with good form, neutral spine. No horrible reps. Then 3 sets of 8 per side suit case deadlifts with 135lbs. Squat day is similar and will quite often include 2 squat variations, (sometimes this will be a good morning), single leg movement and a roll out. I deadlift on Saturday and squat on a tuesday.

I'm definitely not a genetic freak, either, trust me. I had a long list of injuries before I got strong.

I believe if you train most of the time with a neutral spine, you can handle alot more volume of the big lifts. Big, grinding, ugly reps can screw you up for at least a week and they don't improve much beyond your ego.

It's possible i'm not strong enough to realise that i'm wrong. I don't know. I know 600-700lbs deadlifters and squatters who just deadlift and squat every week...

Most people training for strength "test" themselves too much. You don't get stronger during a test or a competition. You build the strength before it. We need to build more, test less (if at all). Train the big lifts with a "skill" mindset, and not a powerlifter-on-a-platform-mindset. Become more skilled at straining with heavy weights whilst maintaining technique. Fight technique rather than numbers. Use enough load to challenge your ability to maintain technique and fight it. Then smash all your weak links and supporting muscles with assistance exercises.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:11 am 
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I reckon your lower back can be trained to handle more volume, just like everything else.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:26 pm 
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very good advice from KPj.

if you want to gain strength and also put on more size, i would recommend that you are doing assistance work in the 10 rep sector with high volume like 5x10. this is what many guys here do and what's also recommended by jim wendler. i'm doing 5x10 assistance work for some months and put on more size relatively in this time than in some months with a maximum of 5 reps.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:52 pm 
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KPj wrote:
My opinion has changed somewhat on the lower back and volume in general.

Over the last year or so i've slowly increased the volume of deadlifting, squatting and lower back work I do. I think a lot of powerlifters have very poor conditioning because we live under this false belief that conditioning doesn't matter for strength. I also think (well, know) a lot of powerlifters regularly lift with bad technique. Ugly lifts take longer to recover from. Especially of you injure something
.

Increased Lower Back Training

As I stated in a previous post, the lower back (core) get a lot more work than most individuals realize.

The squat places a lot of work on the lower back. That means if you have a squat day and a deadlift day, you end up with two fairly heavy back days.

If you perform heavy shoulder presses, standing curls, unsupported bent over rows, sit ups, etc, you back is getting worked on those days as well.

That means most individuals are getting more lower back volume than they realize.

Conditioning

I am not exactly sure what you mean.

Poor Technique

Good point. The further the weight is from your Center of Gravity, the heavier it is.

Good Mornings and Back Raises

Center of Gravity is one benefits of working the lower back with Good Mornings and Back Raises.

The load/bar is much further out in front of you Good Mornings/Back Raises compared to deadlifts.

Torque

The load/weight of the bar is magnified beyond it true weight the further it is from the Center of Gravity.

That means you are able to use lighter "bar weight" with a Good Morning/Back Raise provides similar resistance to a heavy deadlift.


Quote:
I've made it a focus to build technique on the powerlifts then get the real intensity through volume via assistance exercises
.

"You can train hard or long but not both." Vince Gironda

High intensity is on one side of a see saw, volume is on the other side of the see saw. When one goes up the other goes down.


Quote:
For example, Saturday I got 3 doubles on conventional DL with 430lbs (that's 85%) then 3 hard sets of 5 sumo dl's, finishing with 5 @ 400lbs (I weigh 180). All without a belt and all with good form, neutral spine. No horrible reps. Then 3 sets of 8 per side suit case deadlifts with 135lbs. Squat day is similar and will quite often include 2 squat variations, (sometimes this will be a good morning), single leg movement and a roll out. I deadlift on Saturday and squat on a tuesday.


"In the July 1981 Powerlifting USA article, "The Biomechanics of Powerlifting", Dr Tom McLaughlin cautioned, "...whatever you do, DON'T OVER TRAIN THE LOWER BACK. These muscles fatigue faster than almost any other muscle group in the body and also take more time to recover."

Squats place a lot of work on the lower back. One article that I have often eludes to is Hollie Evette's "When The Back Says NO and The Legs Say Go."

What Evette noted was that the lower back wears out long before the legs are really worked.

Heavy Squat And Deadlifts

One of the biggest problems for most powerlifters is pushing squat on let's say Saturday and then the pushing the deadlift on let's say Tuesday.

What you end up, again, is two heavy lower back days.

The end result is that their deadlift and sometimes their squat suffers.

If it works for you, Great. However, care should be taken NOT to overtrain the lower back. Once you back goes, so does you squat and your deadlift...the lower back is key to both.


Quote:
I believe if you train most of the time with a neutral spine, you can handle alot more volume of the big lifts.


Yes. Maintaining a neutral spine has been shown provides a much stronger Center of Gravity position to drive from.

Quote:
Big, grinding, ugly reps can screw you up for at least a week and they don't improve much beyond your ego.


Bench Press More Now, Dr Tom McLaughlin

This is one of the best books ever written. The principles of bench pressing apply to squats, deadlifts, etc.

Technique Training

One of the interesting analogies of McLaughlin is, "You don't Pole Vault for reps. So, why would you squat for reps?"

What you note is what McLaughlin points out. When digging for extra reps in a squat, bench press, deadlift, "Ugly Reps" teach you to perform the movement incorrectly.

As you also point out, the screw you up. That moreso from the increase in torque from allowing the bar to drift beyond the Center of Gravity.

Again, when the bar drive beyond the Center of Gravity, the load is increased. Add to that your body is in a compromised position...which means you are really screwed.

McLaughlin's Solution

1) Perform heavy singles for technique, 85% plus of 1RM.

2) STOP when your technique falls apart. Continuing only reinforces poor technique and increase you risk of injury.

3) Use auxiliar exercise that are similar in nature to the lift to increase strength.

McLaughlin's research support much of the Westside Method.


Quote:
It's possible i'm not strong enough to realise that i'm wrong. I don't know. I know 600-700lbs deadlifters and squatters who just deadlift and squat every week...


The majority of powerlifter find training the squat and dealift heavy during the same week, determintal.

Finding a method of increasing your squat and deadlift is a balancing act.


Quote:
Most people training for strength "test" themselves too much.


I see this a lot in novice lifters.

Quote:
You don't get stronger during a test or a competition. You build the strength before it. We need to build more, test less (if at all). Train the big lifts with a "skill" mindset, and not a powerlifter-on-a-platform-mindset. Become more skilled at straining with heavy weights whilst maintaining technique. Fight technique rather than numbers. Use enough load to challenge your ability to maintain technique and fight it. Then smash all your weak links and supporting muscles with assistance exercises.


Exactly.

Powerlifters appear to have primal brains. The beauty of that is anyone with half a brain in powerlifting is considered a genius.

Anyone powerlifters who can string enough word together to make a coherent sentence is a super genius.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:45 pm 
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ephs wrote:
if you want to gain strength and also put on more size, i would recommend that you are doing assistance work in the 10 rep sector with high volume like 5x10. this is what many guys here do and what's also recommended by jim wendler. i'm doing 5x10 assistance work for some months and put on more size relatively in this time than in some months with a maximum of 5 reps.

That's quite the volume right there!

Not that long ago, I started (well, RE-started after years of monkey-see-monkey-do in a gym packed with guys who don't work legs) with a bare bar to learn technique. Increased intensity by 5lb increments and only if each rep was good. The gains in strength and changes in body composition have been extremely rewarding thus far.
I will definitely reduce intensity and increase volume (along with other changes) when I feel progression is approaching a plateau. Hopefully, not anytime soon though.

Right now, I'm trying to process all this new information and apply it to my Deadlift Wednesdays question as someone with rather moderate goals.. In the short run, to feel and look good. In the long run, to maximize the number of decades I can wipe my own ass and possibly stay out of a wheelchair.

My original plan was to keep banging out 5x5 with solid form and let the increases in intensity dictate when it's time to start reducing the volume. It looks to be more complicated. Kenny pointed out my lower back is working in almost all parts of my program.

Some said 5x5 is way too much, but others disagree. Then there's the suggestion of completely stopping DLs. I do love GMs, but isn't the deadlift only second to the squat when it comes to CNS stimulation? (I'm still fighting off a small belly pouch of fat)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:18 am 
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If you never do deadlift how do you know how strong your deadlift is for competition?

And with singles, how do you advance in weight? Cycle every so often to a lower weight and work back up? Or after you can complete X number of singles in good form do you increase the weight?

I love the deadlift, I would be much happier dropping squat than deadlift. I've not noticed back issues with the deadlift so much as very sore hamstrings and glutes. I'm very curious about this no deadlift style of training, it just doesn't make sense to me yet...I did do squat and deadlift on the same day for a while with some success. Some top powerlifters utilize this style of training, but then they have a pharmacy to back them up :wink:

The squat is frequently trained multiple times per week, with significant success I might add. Wouldn't this have the same affect on the lower back as squatting and deadlifting in the same week? I'm not quite understanding how this is supposed to work...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:44 am 
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Cancelled...see other post.

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Last edited by Kenny Croxdale on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:46 am 
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b-marz wrote:
If you never do deadlift how do you know how strong your deadlift is for competition?


Correlation

As with anything, if you do it enough, you find a correlation.

Through training, I found a correlation between the amount of weight I used in Good Mornings and "Plyomentric" Hang Power Cleans and my deadlift.

How do you know...?

Think of it this way. How do you know how much you can deadlift at a meet base on 5 Reps, 4 Reps, 3 Reps or 2 Reps?

You learn by doing.

And with singles, how do you advance in weight?

Pole Vaulting For Reps

Does a Pole Vaulter vault for reps? That means do they perform 5-10 runs with vaults without stopping?

Do baseball pitchers have a bag of balls so they can throw for a set of 5-10 reps non stop.

Do Olympic Lifters perform sets of 5-10 Jerks, non stop?

None of these sports does that, for a reason.

The majority of sports develop strength and power by employing exercises that specifically address the movements of their sport.

The Powerlifting Paradox

Powerlifting is one of the only sports that uses the sports movement itself as a means of increasing strength.

What makes Powerlifters so special that they are the only group that utilizes the sports movement itself as a means of increasing strength in those movemennts (Squats, Bench Press, Deadlift).

The answer is that Powerlifter are NOT that special.

Westside and The Olympic Lifts

The Westside templet is built on Olympic Lifting methods. Strength is developed with auxiliary exercises that are simlar in nature to the sports movement.

McLaughlin's Bench Press More Now

This book on bench pressing expounds (based on science) on same thing as Westside, "Use auxiliary exercises to increase strength in the powerlifts (sports movement).

Singles

The use of singles in the Squat, Bench Press and Deadift are use to develop technique and innervat the Central Nervous Sytem, Rate Coding, Improve High Threshold Motor Recruitment, Increase Synchronization of Motor Units, etc.

If you have question on that, google it.


Quote:
Cycle every so often to a lower weight and work back up?



You have just defined...

Periodization

No matter what program you use, you need to back off and allow recovery to take place.

Constantly pushing it leads to overreaching and then overtraining. In plain English, the means you are going to become weaker and smaller.


Quote:
Or after you can complete X number of singles in good form do you increase the weight?


Singles should be used as a mean of improving techique that the other attributes that I stated above.

However, as with anything you learn that X number or reps or singles will produce an X number Max.


Quote:
I love the deadlift, I would be much happier dropping squat than deadlift.


Give it a try and see how it works.

Quote:
I've not noticed back issues with the deadlift so much as very sore hamstrings and glutes.


That because there is more activation of the hamstrings in a deadlift. The glutes are active in the squat and deadlift.

However, the deadlift works the glutes a bit differently that the squat. Think of the deadlift as chocolate ice cream and the squats as vanilla. Both are ice cream but different.


Quote:
I'm very curious about this no deadlift style of training, it just doesn't make sense to me yet...


It didn't make sense to me, at first. I eased into it.

The foundation of my reasoning and article was built on Bill Starr's no deadlift training method.

Bill Starr

Bill Starr was an Olympic Lifter who broke the American Deadlift Record in 1968 by NOT deadlifting. Starr used heavy Good Mornings and Power Cleans.

Loren Betzer

Years later, Betzer's no deadlift article went into performing Parial Deadlifts and Squats.

Luckman put 40 lbs on his deadlift in 5 months with this method.

Westside

Simmons is a student of Starr. Thus, the Westside much of their Deadlift training revolves around Good Mornings.

My Experience

I took my deadlift from 540 lbs to 595 lbs in a year. Initially, I used Partial Deadlifts and Power Cleans.

Then I just did Heavy Good Mornings and Power Cleans. With these two, I increased my Deadlift to 617 lbs/280 kg. That took about another year to move it up there.

You can google me and find my State Records online.

Phil Rivera

Phil read my article but didn't like not deadifting. Phil revised my program.

Phil would perform Heavy Good Mornings and Power Cleans for three weeks and then Deadlift on the fourth week.

Phil put 40 lbs on his deadlift this way.

Byron Bennoit

Bennoit was one of the best 132 lb lifter of the late 1960s and early 1970s.

Bennoit deadlifted 520 lbs. Bennoit did NO deadlifts.

Bennoit did squats (440 lbs was his best at 132 lbs) and Back Raises.

Mike Tronski

When I met Mike, he was deadlifting 540 lbs. Mike got his Deadlift up to 660 lbs in two years.

Mike didn't stuck with Deadlifts. However, what he did based on my recommendation, was to STOP Deadlifting heavy all the time.

Mike best Deadlifts have come from doing NO Deadlifts 2-3 week before a meet.

Mike's back get a lot of work from his Squat. Combining Heavy Squats with Heavy Deadlifts just doesn't work.


Quote:
I did do squat and deadlift on the same day for a while with some success. Some top powerlifters utilize this style of training, but then they have a pharmacy to back them up :wink:


VERY Few

Very few Powerlifters Squat and Deadlift on the same day. Each lift, when preformed with intensity, suck the life out of you.

Even with pharmaceutical help, VERY Few Powerlfiters perform both lifts in the same session.


Quote:
The squat is frequently trained multiple times per week, with significant success I might add.


Squat Frequency

The Squat is trained infrequently with advance lifters. Maybe twice a week, with one session being heavy and the other session being light to moderate.

Quote:
Wouldn't this have the same affect on the lower back as squatting and deadlifting in the same week?


YES. That is one of the reasons VERY Few Powerlfiter train the Squat frequently.

The deadlift works the same muscle groups and fried the Central Nervous System.


Quote:
I'm not quite understanding how this is supposed to work...


Nor do many lifters who train their squat and deadlift heavy each week. It is a diaser that waiting to happen...overreaching > overtraining. You lose size and strenght.

Lower Back

The lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

Squats and Deadlifts really beat the lower back up.

Thus, working them both of them heavily in the same week is not a good idea.

Alternatives

1) No Deadlift Approach
http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-Dead ... _51-1.html

2) Alternate Heavy Squats one week with Light to Moderate Deadlifts. The second perform Light Squats (basically a light Deadlift warm up), the perform Heavy Deadlifts.

The Focus

The key is to make sure you don't overtrain your lower back. Use whatever method that insures that.

Kenny Croxdale

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