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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:01 pm 
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[/quote]I want them to drive more with their legs because in that situation, they don't drive enough with their legs.[/quote]

NO Leg Strength

Let me reiterate, the cause of "too much back" is weak legs.

The first step to correcting that is to increase their leg strength.

No amount of cueing to "push the through the floor" is going to cure weak legs. That a dead end street.


Quote:
I would rather they used "too much legs" with a good back position than "driving with the back like they're supposed to according to mclaughin" and a poor back position.


McLaughlin's Research

One of the keys to success is finding out what great individuals do and those who are unsuccessful do.

You then emulate successful individuals and avoid the pit falls of the unsuccessful.

McLaughlin's research simply points out what makes great Conventional Deadlifters and how to obtain some of their success.

You discount McLaughlin's research and some research by the National Strength and Conditioning Association on Conventional Deadlifting. Evidently, you know more than they do.


Quote:
As you've quoted many times yourself, "perfect practice makes perfect".


Yes. However, you method is incorrect. You are reinforcing less that perfect technique.

What you want to do is teach them to perform a one two punch. In other word, lead with the lower back and hamstrings, then drive with the legs.

You method is push with the legs then...


Quote:
I don't coach a rounded back lift.


Re-read Contreras article.

Let me also add that the back will round with heavy max loads. It not something you may teach but something that going to happen.


Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The reason someone uses "too much" back is because have super strong lower back and weak legs.

No matter how much they think or try to employ more leg drive it's NOT going to happen with weak legs.

You can perform "Leg Drive" Deadlifts all day long with light to modereate loads. However, in due or die deadlifts you survival mechanism kicks in to insure success at all cost.


Quote:
I don't have clients perform "do or die" deadlifts,


I am not an advocate of heavy deadlift training sessions nor is Contreras.

As you may remember, I stopped performing deadlift in my training session back in 1998, 15 years ago.

In doing so, my deadlift went from 540 lbs/245 kg to 617 lbs/280 kg.

McLaughlin's an advocate of having training sessions work up to 85% plus of 1RM in a training cycle for singles. The singles are for technique, not to strength the deadlift.

Thus, Contreras, McLaughlin and I do not advocate the "do or die" in a training session.

Meet conditions are a different topic.


Quote:
apart from the one who done the competition with me, who I made a training partner rather than a client. This is her, actually - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtuK08FQTsI I think that's her 140kg. Easy. When she started with me she could pull a messy 60KG. Pushing the floor doesn't seem to have done much harm, but it was one of the initial technique issues we worked on.


She has one strong back but her technique need some work.

Quote:
Even then, her do or die lift wasn't in the gym, it was in competition (even then we played it safe - that pull was a scottish a record). Outside of powerlifting, I don't see any value in testing your true 1RM.


Outside powerlifting, not any 1RM make sense.

Quote:
Bare in mind Bobs g/f is not a powerlifter.

Again, "perfect practice makes perfect".


But that is not what you are teaching.

Quote:
If technique breaks down at 100KG, but they can lift 130KG with horrible form, then I won't let them go over 100KG. In my opinion, by doing this, you are targeting your weak links by limiting load to what you lift with good technique. This, along with good assistance exercises do build your weak links - in this case the legs and hips - is the approach I prefer to take.


Agreed. Once technique falls apart, STOP. I have pushed this for years.

Pulling 100 kg isn't mean to increase strength. Using 100 kg should be used to develop technique.

Auxiliary exericses are where you build strength.


Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Prescribed Leg ONLY Movements

1) Leg Press. I am not a fan of the Leg Press one of it greatest beneifts is that has been shown increase the deadlift by strengthening the legs.

Contreras goes into this in his "Deadlift 5 Plate Like Champion" article.

Perform a Quater Leg Press.

Gene Bell (a great deadlifter) in an Powerlifting USA interview, over 20 yeara ago, was ask how much the Leg Press helped his Squat. Bell replied it increased my deadlift but not my squat.


How can you possibly utilise your new found leg pressing strength if you pull with hiked up hips and a rounded back? There's no available leg drive. You've basically skipped that part of the ROM.


Bell has stated they helped his deadlift. Contreras has posted them in his article, "Deadlift 5 Plates Like A Champion". I have pushed them for years. You really need to rethink this.

The Leg Press replicates the leg drive in the hip position. The girl in the video has very little leg drive.

Back-Leg-Back is the firing order in the Conventional Deadlift. The girl in the video is all back drive, Back-Back-Back.


Quote:
Then you recommend the leg press, which is exactly the action I want people to do to get more leg drive...


The difference is that you are cueing them to drive with the legs first.

I am advocating they strength the legs for the second part of the "one-two" punch, a synergistic effect. The sum is greater than it's parts, 2 + 2 = 5.


Quote:
I still want them to be "all back", I just don't want them to be "no legs". I want them to be "all back and legs". If there's no legs i'll encourage more legs until it's fixed. They don't focus on it forever.


A lifter with weak legs and a strong back can focus on driving with the legs until hell freezes over. However, it's not going to happen with heavy load if their legs are weak.

An old cowboys saying is, "You can spit in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first.'

Your cueing amount to wiching for stronger leg drive from weak legs. Wishing, focusing, crying, screaming, etc won't get it.

Strengthen the legs, then focus.

But don't use false cues. Don't tell them to dive with the legs when you really want a "one-two" push
.

Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
2) Quarter Squats. This movement emulates the quater squat starting drive position in a deadlift, breaking it off the floor.

3) Belt Squats. This movement allows you take the lower back out of the equation and completely overload the legs. Perform them from a quarter squat "Deadlift" position.

4) Quarter Step Ups. This is just another variation of Quater Squats, Quater Belt Squats and the Leg Press.

5) Belt Good Mornings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXNlbNS3WnU

This overload the hamstrings and glutes, taking the lower back out of the equation.

You don't need a machine. You need a loading pin, belt and boxes to stand on. [/color]


On top of these recommendations, would you just allow the lifter to pull with crap technique when they were actually deadlifting? Or would they stop deadlifting until they strengthened the weak link? Or are you saying, as I think Peter was trying to ask, that you encourage people to lift with a rounded back?


If you go back and google me, you will find that I always adovocate to STOP the movement once the technique falls apart.

Use auxiliary exercise to strengthen the weak link.

Contreras provide an interesting perspective that some rounding of the back may be natural.

Did you read the article?

Also, I have stated in multiple posts on this site and others that during a heavy deadlift, some rounding is going to occur. Kuc, Bolton, Gant, Anello, Kazmaier, etc rounded on max loads.

As Contreras notes in his article, some rounding appears to be a natural and advantageous method. However, there are some parameters. See "Good vs. Bad Rounded-Back Deadlifting" in the article.


Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Cueing someone with the wrong information amount to telling someone NO when you mean YES.


I disagree with this. If you seen someone deadlift - lets say me and the client are in mute and you can't hear us - and, when it gets heavy the client hikes the hips up (before anything else), rounds the back and pulls that way. Then, I give them a few coaching cues and you see them lift the same weight with perfect form and make it look lighter. Wouldn't you assume I told the correct thing?


This is too cofusing for me to comment on, mutes.

Quote:
I have this specific cue on video, before (showing technique break down), during (me filming and coaching) and will have the "after" video soon. In the "during" video you blatantly see the weight look easier with better form when the changes are made. In the after video you're going to see around 50lbs more get lifted with better form (he's already doubles 20lbs more with perfect form). The technique issues we have been working on are starting with the hips lower, pushing the floor away, and "dragging the bar up the legs". Push the floor away was the initial focus.


Post the video.


Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Research shows learning is more effective when you ONLY give them ONE cue to think about.[/color]

That's one coaching cue during the rep. I teach the set up before I coach the lift which is part of what I was recommending. Makes life easier/simpler. When I coach the lift it's one cue at a time.

I am on board with that.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Cueing an individual with the incorrect information is counter productive.

Quote:
What you want is a boxing "One-Two" combination. The back and hamstring fire, then the hip drive with the legs kick in.


How do you tell a client to fire the back and hamstrings then bring the hips and legs in?


[color=#000080]There was a book written on this years ago that related to this, Touch Training For Strength.

Why not just cue them in whatever way makes them lift with good technique?

The cueing is wrong.

Quote:
Won't good technique give us the correct muscle-firing-sequence?


Only if they fall into it head first.

Quote:
If it doesn't, does it even matter? Isn't the end goal in a coaching session to achieve good or better technique? If not, then what's the point in the coach? Personally I don't have an EMG machine to hook up to clients, and I don't put all my trust in EMG data anyway. I just want a good, strong, and especially safe lift.


It does matter. Your cueing them incorrectly and chose to do so. That is your choice.

I provide information. What you decide to do with it is up to you.

The problem is lifter then perpetuates the myth.

You want to use EMG data along with empirical data.


Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Your "push the floor away" is programming them to think leg first then..., which make it confusining for the lifter.


Most people I deal with have no idea about muscle-firing-sequencing. I would probably pass it out in shock if a client retorted my cue with, "but, isn't that incorrect muscle-firing sequence? Aren't the back and hamstrings supposed to kick in first, THEN the hips?". If the client knows this, they probably don't need me...


Evidently, you are no as familiar withthe muscle firing sequence, either.

Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
However, NO one should be programmed think "push the floor away" in a deadlift.

The most effective method of insuring "too much" back is not used is very simple.

Strength the leg/hip drive and it will happen.


We'll most likely need to agree to disagree. When I have that video made i'll be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts, though.


Thanks, enjoying the discussion.

KPj


Discussing this with you has been like beating my head against a brick wall.

The beauty of beating you head against a brick wall is how gooood it feels when you stop.

So, I am stopping now. Wow, I feel better already.

We be done with this topic!!!

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Powerlifting Ninja
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Posts: 1041
KenDowns wrote:
Kenny spell more gooder

kenny you smart know lot but spell no letter s on word i getting the distracted.


Yea, I know. My brain and my fingers down work well at the same time. :(

Thanks...Kenny

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:32 am 
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I think we'll need to agree to disagree but, I'll comment anyway for the purpose of anyone else that might be reading this.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
NO Leg Strength

Let me reiterate, the cause of "too much back" is weak legs.

The first step to correcting that is to increase their leg strength.

No amount of cueing to "push the through the floor" is going to cure weak legs. That a dead end street.


That's not really what i'm saying (pushing the floor will strengthen the legs). All i'm saying is people who tend to hike the hips up and round the back, even with a weight that's not all that heavy, will pull better if they think more about pushing the floor than just "standing up with it".

I also "think" (as in, just my opinion) that doing this keeps your weight back and helps to stop the lifter get pulled forward with it, which allows them to pull with the back more.

Regardless, i'm not saying I know exactly what's going on. I just know that for some people, that cue cleans their technique right up. Again, it's not what I coach with everyone, and I don't cue it forever, either.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
One of the keys to success is finding out what great individuals do and those who are unsuccessful do.

You then emulate successful individuals and avoid the pit falls of the unsuccessful.

McLaughlin's research simply points out what makes great Conventional Deadlifters and how to obtain some of their success.

You discount McLaughlin's research and some research by the National Strength and Conditioning Association on Conventional Deadlifting. Evidently, you know more than they do.


Again, not what i'm saying. I would rather someone contradicted the correct muscle-firing-sequence and lift with a safe back position. I've found I can get people with this problem to lift safer and heavier when I use this cue.

If there's an alternative which does adhere to NSCA and McLaughlins research then I would love to hear it.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Yes. However, you method is incorrect. You are reinforcing less that perfect technique.

What you want to do is teach them to perform a one two punch. In other word, lead with the lower back and hamstrings, then drive with the legs.

You method is push with the legs then...


My "method" depends on the lifter.

Technically, I coach to create tension and fall back on it before pushing with the legs (if I even say that). Maybe it's the same thing.

I don't really understand how you can forcefully lead with the back without being pulled infront of the bar and rounding, if you don't have a hell of a lot of tension in the legs (created in this example by pushing the floor).

Maybe "pushing the floor" just "sets" the legs and hips to allow for a stronger pull from the back?

In the same way that taking the slack out of the bar creates tension in the body to pull without jerking. Or for some people, and another approach I take with some people, setting the lats allows them to pull with the bar closer to them. In this case i'm not asking them to now change the muscle-firing-sequence to begin with the lats. I just want them set up better and pulling with better technique.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Let me also add that the back will round with heavy max loads. It not something you may teach but something that going to happen.


Agreed. I just don't think anyone outside of powerlifting needs to take the loads this far. If it happens in the odd test day or whatever then i'm not too concerned because it's rare but in general I avoid it.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

I am not an advocate of heavy deadlift training sessions nor is Contreras.

As you may remember, I stopped performing deadlift in my training session back in 1998, 15 years ago.

In doing so, my deadlift went from 540 lbs/245 kg to 617 lbs/280 kg.

McLaughlin's an advocate of having training sessions work up to 85% plus of 1RM in a training cycle for singles. The singles are for technique, not to strength the deadlift.

Thus, Contreras, McLaughlin and I do not advocate the "do or die" in a training session.

Meet conditions are a different topic.



Nice that we agree on something :wink:

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
She has one strong back but her technique need some work.


The point was, that deadlift is even more "do or die" than I allow in the gym.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Agreed. Once technique falls apart, STOP. I have pushed this for years.

Pulling 100 kg isn't mean to increase strength. Using 100 kg should be used to develop technique.

Auxiliary exericses are where you build strength. [/color]


Strongly agree with this.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Your cueing amount to wiching for stronger leg drive from weak legs. Wishing, focusing, crying, screaming, etc won't get it.

Strengthen the legs, then focus.

But don't use false cues. Don't tell them to dive with the legs when you really want a "one-two" push[/color].


I always have a big focus on strengthening the legs....

The debate is about cueing, not assistance exercises.


Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Contreras provide an interesting perspective that some rounding of the back may be natural.

Did you read the article?


Yes. From the article,

"As mentioned, the safest spinal posture is a neutral position, with no incidents of flexion or hyperextension in any segments. However, studies show that powerlifters flex their spines considerably, but they avoid injury simply because they avoid end-ranges of lumbar flexion."

Again, i'm not training powerlifters, and Bobs g/f isn't a powerlifter. So I want the "safest" spinal position, which according to Contreras in the same article has no flexion or hyper extension at any segment.

I'm not really sure why this is relevant. We're talking about optimal technique to pull maximal weights for the sake of pulling maximal weights. The discussion is about coaching the deadlift for a non-powerlifter and what cues work (or don't work) to improve technique. Technique in this case is NOT the one powerlifters use in competition.

For a recreational deadlifter, I just want to see a neutral spine with a strong hip hinge. I don't want to see a "spine hinge". When I do, we've went too heavy. This is just my opinion.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Cueing someone with the wrong information amount to telling someone NO when you mean YES.


That's your opinion....

I just want them to lift better. Again, if I come across a better way i'll be open to it. I've not seen that yet. I can try telling clients to do the "one two punch" - back then legs. Not going to happen but I can try.

As soon as they start lifting, btw, I cue chest up/back, when the bar approaches knees I cue hips.

I think Pushing the floor is more about being set up properly and I find it allows people to begin the pull with more effort without breaking down. I'm surprised you're so riled by a form cue. I'm aware of some research into coaching cues in terms of effectiveness i.e comparing internal cues with external cues. However, i'm not aware of any EMG data done in relation to coaching cues?

For example, one person thinks, "push the floor away". The other person thinks, "pull the chest up". Both lift with good technique. Would the EMG data be different?

I genuinely don't know, and curious if that's been done?

I think a lot of coaching cues just describe the same thing in different ways. I think pushing the floor and "use the bar to pull your chest up" Or "take the slack out of the bar", and even "fall back on it" create the same thing - a better starting position with weight back on heels more and more body tension. It's just that, some people understand some cues, and other people understand others. I used to always just say, "fall back on it and rip the chest up". Some people don't get it. So I tried some other cues.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Post the video.


I'll post it here when I have it as I want to include the improvement over a few months, too.


Kenny Croxdale wrote:
[color=#000080]There was a book written on this years ago that related to this, Touch Training For Strength.


I'll check it out, didn't know about that :smile:

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The cueing is wrong.


If "wrong" cueing gives me "correct" technique, then i'm happy with wrong, at least until I find a better alternative, which I'm always looking for.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Evidently, you are no as familiar withthe muscle firing sequence, either.


Clearly.

In reality, though, it's not what I'm thinking about when coaching a deadlift, which i'm not ashamed to admit. Again, I just want them to lift with good technique and i'll use any cue that'll get the job done.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Discussing this with you has been like beating my head against a brick wall.

The beauty of beating you head against a brick wall is how gooood it feels when you stop.

So, I am stopping now. Wow, I feel better already.


I hope it was as good for the wall as it was for you!

:salute:

KPj

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:15 am 
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I agree with Kenny.

Or Ken? Wait, isn't everbody in here Ken, except for Oscar?

The fastest way to fix a technical weakness in a major lift is to correct the weakness. Weak can't be cued.

Conventional deadlifting at the world-class level will almost certainly require upper back rounding to "hang" off the ligamentous structure and fascia and position the hips in a way that maximally decreases the range of motion in the lift.

BUT I have to defer to Contreras here.
Quote:
So powerlifters and strongmen can round all they want, as can recreational lifters who understand the risks versus the rewards. But if you’re a strength coach or a personal trainer, it’s best to avoid round-back deadlifts (or squats, good mornings, bent over rows, t-bar rows, and bent over rear-delt raises) and keep an arch when deadlifting.

Even when competing or coaching competition, I'm doing so at a gear-free, drug-free national level for fun. I don't have the chops to compete at or coach anything beyond that, and I recognize my limitations. If one of my clients wanted to go beyond the small federation we've competed in I'd tell them honestly that I'm not the coach for them. Most of the time I'm coaching hip hinging as opposed to deadlifting because I don't work with powerlifters, I would with seniors or people approaching their elder years.

As far as the question in the original post, I echo the sentiment that she's probably either not positioning her shins to contact the bar properly or she's too far from the bar to begin with and she's shifting the load forward.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:22 am 
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I'm glad we got some good discussion out of this, it's been a while since we've had a lively debate around here


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:24 am 
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by the way, she has her shins against the bar when she sets up


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:59 am 
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Form breaking down isn't always a case of weakness.

In a beginner, everything is a weakness.

Although, having the advantage of knowing a little back ground, I know Bobs g/f has been squatting and lunging like a champ.

Sometimes you have the strength there already, you're just not tapping into, and this is when the right coaching can make you instantly stronger.

Examples are cueing someon to sit back and push the knees out in a squat. Or a flat backed bencher to squeeze the scap together.

Or even the beginner who can lift 50lbs more after one week.

The strength was there, they just weren't using it.

The original problem has been side tracked over the reaction to the cue, "push the floor away".

First thing you need to do is get her set up right. Then, when she actually gets the weight moving from a good starting position, you can judge what cue's you'll need.

Check from the side. I know she has long legs - if i remember very long legs compared to her torso, so she is going to have a higher hip position. You just want them sitting below the shoulders.

So, when looking from the side, you may just need to have her "fall back" whilst holding onto the bar. Some people say "pull the chest up".

This creates an initial feeling of actually falling back and she won't like this. This is where you need tension. Either tell her to pull on the bar, or, god forbid, push the floor. Does the same thing - creates tension from the floor, through the body, and into the bar. It should have her "taught", and ready to rip the weight up.

Another thing, which i've only ever seen in women, is she may be arching too much - hyper extension. You can fix this with teaching how to brace, and having her brace before she gets down to the bar.

BTW, in rare cases, just saying, "lower your hips" will sort things out.

EDIT: One more addition - maybe stand further away from the bar. When your standing upright at the bar, before you go down to set up, you have from "shins touching" to "bar over mid foot" to play around with. Mid foot includes the heel, though i.e not from the front of the shin to the toe. For most, it means they can either stand with shins touching, or with the shins 2 inches away from the bar before they go down to get set up.

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:16 pm 
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well we had another run at deadlifting today, she was made an effort to keep her hips lower and her technique looked MUCH better. Her technique was better than 99% of the people in the gym so I think it's all good.


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