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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:05 am 
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Article makes the interesting distinction between hard-gainer, whom he boldly labels as one who doesn't eat or train hard enough, and true ectomorphs, who are simply skinny.

This quote induced a Eureka moment: "Remember, you already have a ridiculously fast metabolism; therefore your goal is not to burn a motherload of calories in the gym. Muscle grows at rest and not during the actual training session, so practice that." Knew both of those already, never put them together.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... morph_grow


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 11:03 am 
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totally contradicts about a million other articles on training for ectomorphs


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:20 pm 
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That guy is still a kid. I couldn't gain fat if I wanted to at his age. Now it's a battle all the time. Sure, start lifting as a teen and you can get muscular but being an ectomorph doesn't mean you're never going to have to fight the battle of the bulge. Still, it would have been nice to read this 30some years ago.

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:45 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
totally contradicts about a million other articles on training for ectomorphs


I am not sure where you are getting that information.

There is plenty of it stating that Ectomphs obtain better results with high intensity, low volume training.

As ranking memeber of the ectomprph society, I have personally found high intensity, low volume to be more effective in obtaining results.

Brawn

This book is one of the better one's on the market and it's been around forever.

Brawn is a book for "hard gainers" (ectomophs).

The templet of book is high intensity, low volume.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:54 am 
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How many serious Trek TOS fans are out there? Who would know this line, "I must reevaluate". Say it in a robot voice and you might remember.

This article recommends a few things that have worked very well for me. I rarely even go to 5 reps, do 3-4 moves max per session (as I learned here on these forums actually), and have seen progress in Dead and Squat.

The idea of going to floor presses for awhile is very intriguing.

Pondering...


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 11:30 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
robertscott wrote:
totally contradicts about a million other articles on training for ectomorphs


[color=#000040]I am not sure where you are getting that information.

There is plenty of it stating that Ectomphs obtain better results with high intensity, low volume training.

As ranking memeber of the ectomprph society, I have personally found high intensity, low volume to be more effective in obtaining results.


and plenty stating the opposite. I have read countless times that long limbed individuals need more isolation work for the limbs, particularly shoulder and arms, and are more slow-twitch in general so respond better to higher rep ranges.

That was certainly true in my case, and I absolutely fit the classic definition of ectomorph.

The problem I have with the article though is to suggest that all ectomorphs need to train the same. Different people will respond to different things. The fact that you respond better to low volume, high intensity and I respond better to the opposite with both of us being ectomorphs just proves that there is no one way that an ectomorph, or any other somatype for that matter, should train.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 10:47 am 
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robertscott wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
robertscott wrote:
totally contradicts about a million other articles on training for ectomorphs


I am not sure where you are getting that information.

There is plenty of it stating that Ectomphs obtain better results with high intensity, low volume training.

As ranking memeber of the ectomprph society, I have personally found high intensity, low volume to be more effective in obtaining results.


and plenty stating the opposite.


[color=#000080]Great. Then you will have no problem in providing it.

Quote:
I have read countless times that long limbed individuals need more isolation work for the limbs, particularly shoulder and arms,


Whoever wrote that is an idiot.

Let me repharse it. They are a God Damn idiot.

"The Money Exercises"

The real money exercises are compound movements: Squats, Deadlifts, Pressing, etc.

The weak link in the chain are the "Isolation Exercise Muscles".

In plain English, the means these smaller "Isolation Exercise Muscles" get the crap pounded out of them.

Lat Pulldown Example:

The biceps are overloaded long before the last are completely exhausted.

Bench Press Example:

The triceps are toasted long before the chest is completely exhausted.

Thus, the "Isolation Exercise Muscle" are completely worked with compound movement.

The LAST thing endormorph's need is more work. They have a high metabolism and their recovery rate is much longer.

In other word, the greater the volume the greater the trama.

"Wound Healing"

This is all about trama. The greater the trama the longer the recover process.

This means that ectomorphs easily "Overreach" with volume training and eventually "Overtrain".

"Stupid is as stupid does." Forrest Gump

Ectomophs are those who prescribe volume training for this somotype should be hung and then given a fair trial.


Quote:
and are more slow-twitch in general so respond better to higher rep ranges.


Yes, Ectomorphs appear to do well with higher repetition movements.

Quote:
That was certainly true in my case, and I absolutely fit the classic definition of ectomorph.

The problem I have with the article though is to suggest that all ectomorphs need to train the same. Different people will respond to different things. The fact that you respond better to low volume, high intensity and I respond better to the opposite with both of us being ectomorphs just proves that there is no one way that an ectomorph, or any other somatype for that matter, should train.


Alike Vs Dis-Alike

For the most part, the majority of ectomorphs need to perform low volume-high intensity training. This will elict the greatest training response.

In other word, certain group are more Alike than Dis-Alike.

Medication

A great example is medication. What usually works for one individual will work for another.

That is because we are more alike that dis-alike.

Differnt People

This is horse $h1t.

Rephasing It

A minor sampling of individual will do better with other types of programs.

The MAJORITY of individuals in a sub set will elict the greatest training response when the protocol per that group is followed.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:24 pm 
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I think the kind of high volume programs promoted by bodybuilding magazines and followed by most gymrats include far too many isolation exercises and too much volume for virtually anyone other than a steroid-using bodybuilder. Even then, some steroid-using bodybuilders do better with less volume. Dorian Yates was a good example.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:01 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
totally contradicts about a million other articles on training for ectomorphs


Kenny Croxdale wrote:
I am not sure where you are getting that information.


There is plenty of it stating that Ectomphs obtain better results with high intensity, low volume training.

As ranking memeber of the ectomprph society, I have personally found high intensity, low volume to be more effective in obtaining results.

robertscott wrote:

and plenty stating the opposite.

[color=#000080]Great. Then you will have no problem in providing it.
[/quote]

google is your friend

Quote:
I have read countless times that long limbed individuals need more isolation work for the limbs, particularly shoulder and arms,

Whoever wrote that is an idiot.

Let me repharse it. They are a God Damn idiot.


says you. They're not the ones throwing around ad hominems on internet forums though. Christian Thibaudeau over on T-Nation says it. He must be an idiot.

Quote:
"The Money Exercises"

The real money exercises are compound movements: Squats, Deadlifts, Pressing, etc.

The weak link in the chain are the "Isolation Exercise Muscles".

In plain English, the means these smaller "Isolation Exercise Muscles" get the crap pounded out of them.


no disagreement here. I've never understood why when someone says a routine should include isolation, someone else starts barking about how compounds are better. A good routine contains both

Quote:

Lat Pulldown Example:

The biceps are overloaded long before the last are completely exhausted.



not when I do them. And even if that were the case, simply pre-exhausting the lats prior to the pulldown would fix that easily. Also a pronated grip puts the biceps in a disadvantaged position so the lats work harder. I know you know this.

Quote:

Bench Press Example:

The triceps are toasted long before the chest is completely exhausted.



not when I do them, it's actually my anterior delts that tire first. Again, pre-exhaust if necessary.

Quote:

The LAST thing endormorph's need is more work. They have a high metabolism and their recovery rate is much longer.

In other word, the greater the volume the greater the trama.


says who? Evidence for this? Ectomorph's greater need for recovery is caused by?

Quote:

"Wound Healing"

This is all about trama. The greater the trama the longer the recover process.

This means that ectomorphs easily "Overreach" with volume training and eventually "Overtrain".



overtrain? Really? Uh, no. Overtraining is rarer than uniform $h1t. If someone is under-recovering, then they are not eating/sleeping enough to support their training. Easily fixed. Real overtraining, as suffered by Olympic athletes, complete with all the different pathologies, just does not happen to average joes.

If ectomorphs higher metabolism means they need to eat more to recover, I can think of a pretty easy way to fix that.

Quote:

"Stupid is as stupid does." Forrest Gump

Ectomophs are those who prescribe volume training for this somotype should be hung and then given a fair trial.


don't really have a response to this

Quote:
and are more slow-twitch in general so respond better to higher rep ranges.

Quote:
Yes, Ectomorphs appear to do well with higher repetition movements.


doesn't this contradict what you were saying about low volume?

Quote:
Alike Vs Dis-Alike

For the most part, the majority of ectomorphs need to perform low volume-high intensity training. This will elict the greatest training response.

In other word, certain group are more Alike than Dis-Alike.

Medication

A great example is medication. What usually works for one individual will work for another.

That is because we are more alike that dis-alike.


medication works by a totally different mechanism than weight training. Not a good comparison. And there is HUGE variation between how individuals can respond to a medication.

Quote:

Differnt People

This is horse $h1t.

Rephasing It

A minor sampling of individual will do better with other types of programs.

The MAJORITY of individuals in a sub set will elict the greatest training response when the protocol per that group is followed.

Kenny Croxdale
[/quote]

again, different people have different fibre make up, and will need different rep ranges. Dr Squat had a great article about how to find it for your individual bodyparts. But then Dr Squat disagrees with you, so I guess he must be an idiot.


Last edited by robertscott on Sat May 25, 2013 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Sounds to me that everyone has said what they have to say.

It should be possible to disagree without resorting to ad hominum attacks. We're close to lock-down here.

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:45 pm 
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I challenge you to find one ad hominem in my post


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Quote:
Great. Then you will have no problem in providing it.


google is your friend[/quote]

Evidently, it not your friend since you have provide nothing.

Quote:
I have read countless times that long limbed individuals need more isolation work for the limbs, particularly shoulder and arms,

Quote:
Whoever wrote that is an idiot.

Let me repharse it. They are a God Damn idiot.


says you. They're not the ones throwing around ad hominems on internet forums though. Christian Thibaudeau over on T-Nation says it. He must be an idiot.


Great. Then you will have no problem posting that information.

Quote:
Lat Pulldown Example:

The biceps are overloaded long before the last are completely exhausted.



not when I do them. And even if that were the case, simply pre-exhausting the lats prior to the pulldown would fix that easily. Also a pronated grip puts the biceps in a disadvantaged position so the lats work harder. I know you know this.[/quote]

[color=#000080]That because you special.

Your pre-exhaustion statement illustrates my point. Thank for the help.

Quote:
Bench Press Example:

The triceps are toasted long before the chest is completely exhausted.



not when I do them, it's actually my anterior delts that tire first. Again, pre-exhaust if necessary.[/quote]

Pre-exhaust. Thanks reinforcing my point.

Quote:
overtrain? Really? Uh, no. Overtraining is rarer than uniform $h1t. If someone is under-recovering, then they are not eating/sleeping enough to support their training. Easily fixed. Real overtraining, as suffered by Olympic athletes, complete with all the different pathologies, just does not happen to average joes.


Really? There it more about eating more and sleeping more.

So, Olympic athletes just need to eat and sleep more.

Glad that you clean that up.


If ectomorphs higher metabolism means they need to eat more to recover, I can think of a pretty easy way to fix that.

Yes, Ectomorphs appear to do well with higher repetition movements. [/quote]

doesn't this contradict what you were saying about low volume?

Evidently, you have you own definition of what volume is.

Quote:
medication works by a totally different mechanism than weight training. Not a good comparison. And there is HUGE variation between how individuals can respond to a medication.


Really? So, each individual so different and unique that a custom made medication need to be developed and use by each individual.

Interesting.


Quote:
again, different people have different fibre make up, and will need different rep ranges. Dr Squat had a great article about how to find it for your individual bodyparts.


Yes, some individual have more of one muscle fiber type than another.

Great. Post it.


Quote:
But then Dr Squat disagrees with you, so I guess he must be an idiot.


You have provide nothing to to demonstrate that Hatfield and I disagree at this point.

You have a limited amount of knowlege. You have present nothing to back up your points, just vague information that goes no where.

Perhaps you should use something to back up your point other than, "Because I said so."

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:31 pm 
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[youtube][/youtube]
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Evidently, it not your friend since you have provide nothing.


*sigh* ok well what about this:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... omorph&cr=

I didn't bother posting it because I didn't see the need for a tit for tat article exchange but there we go. You have an article, I have an article. Good times, noodle soup.

Quote:
I have read countless times that long limbed individuals need more isolation work for the limbs, particularly shoulder and arms,

Quote:
Great. Then you will have no problem posting that information.


Thibaudeau has posted about a million articles, forum posts and what have you over on that site. I am not going to trawl through them to find that point. If that renders my point invalid, then so be it.

Quote:
Lat Pulldown Example:

The biceps are overloaded long before the last are completely exhausted.

Quote:

not when I do them. And even if that were the case, simply pre-exhausting the lats prior to the pulldown would fix that easily. Also a pronated grip puts the biceps in a disadvantaged position so the lats work harder. I know you know this.


Quote:
That because you special.

Your pre-exhaustion statement illustrates my point. Thank for the help.


I don't think it does help. The biceps do NOT fatigue first when you do pulldowns correctly, which clearly you do not. The pre-exhaust was only mentioned as a way of remedying the problem (which you shouldn't even be having if you perform the moveent correctly) so if you think that proves your point then I don't know what to say to that.


Quote:
Bench Press Example:

The triceps are toasted long before the chest is completely exhausted.



not when I do them, it's actually my anterior delts that tire first. Again, pre-exhaust if necessary.[/quote]

Pre-exhaust. Thanks reinforcing my point. [/quote][/quote]

nope.

Quote:
overtrain? Really? Uh, no. Overtraining is rarer than uniform $h1t. If someone is under-recovering, then they are not eating/sleeping enough to support their training. Easily fixed. Real overtraining, as suffered by Olympic athletes, complete with all the different pathologies, just does not happen to average joes.


Really? There it more about eating more and sleeping more.

So, Olympic athletes just need to eat and sleep more.

Glad that you clean that up.
[/quote]

Oh so Olympic athletes somehow prove your point? Tell it to John Broz. See what he thinks about your overtraining notion.


[/quote]Yes, Ectomorphs appear to do well with higher repetition movements. [/quote]

doesn't this contradict what you were saying about low volume?

Evidently, you have you own definition of what volume is. [/quote]

from wikipedia

"Volume refers to the number of muscles worked, exercises, sets and reps during a single session"

Sounds like my definition was about right.

Quote:
medication works by a totally different mechanism than weight training. Not a good comparison. And there is HUGE variation between how individuals can respond to a medication.


Quote:
Really? So, each individual so different and unique that a custom made medication need to be developed and use by each individual.

Interesting.


different medications are contraindicated for different individuals.

I agree, it is interesting.

Quote:
again, different people have different fibre make up, and will need different rep ranges. Dr Squat had a great article about how to find it for your individual bodyparts.


Quote:
Yes, some individual have more of one muscle fiber type than another.

Great. Post it.


Quote:
But then Dr Squat disagrees with you, so I guess he must be an idiot.


You have provide nothing to to demonstrate that Hatfield and I disagree at this point.


it's on his website. Do your own homework

Quote:
You have a limited amount of knowlege. You have present nothing to back up your points, just vague information that goes no where.

Perhaps you should use something to back up your point other than, "Because I said so."

Kenny Croxdale
[/quote]

I literally laughed out loud when I read this part. This was supposed to be funny, yes? It had to be a joke. You are accusing me of doing what you have been doing yourself all through this thread.

Some of your claims that have been unsubstantiated:

-"The LAST thing endomorphs (I assume you meant to say ectomorphs here...) need is more work. They have a high metabolism and their recovery rate is much longer"

-"this means ectomorphs "overreach"... and eventually "overtrain". "

-the biceps are overloaded long before the lats in a pulldown

-"For the most part, the majority of ectomorphs need to perform low volume-high intensity training. This will elict the greatest training response."

pot kettle black at all Kenny?

And then you round it all off by saying I have limited knowledge. Nice. You know what Kenny? I admit that I have limited knowledge, that's why I drive myself to learn.

I will leave you with a quote from one of my university professors: "Only ignorant people know things, truly educated people accept they know very little."

I know which one of those I am Kenny, and now I see it's pretty clear which one you are (hint: the former).


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:34 pm 
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"no disagreement here. I've never understood why when someone says a routine should include isolation, someone else starts barking about how compounds are better. A good routine contains both" - robertscott

It depends on what you're training for (bodybuilding, strength, power, sports, general fitness, etc). There are good programs that include SOME isolation exercises and other good programs that don't. Whether or not it's worthwhile to include them in a given program will depend on the individual and his/her goals.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:47 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
...
Quote:
Yes, some individual have more of one muscle fiber type than another.

Great. Post it.

Quote:
But then Dr Squat disagrees with you, so I guess he must be an idiot.


[color=#000080]You have provide nothing to to demonstrate that Hatfield and I disagree at this point.

Quote:
it's on his website. Do your own homework
....


Here's the article where Dr. Squat talks about different fibre makeup for different people. http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge-ba ... ning-split

I'm sure Kenny's read this and it's pretty well known stuff. I don't see how it makes a difference to either side.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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Last edited by stuward on Sat May 25, 2013 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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