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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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"overtrain? Really? Uh, no. Overtraining is rarer than uniform $h1t. If someone is under-recovering, then they are not eating/sleeping enough to support their training. Easily fixed. Real overtraining, as suffered by Olympic athletes, complete with all the different pathologies, just does not happen to average joes." - robertscott

There are at least two definitions of over-training. I've always used the simple, layman's definition. If your doing more than the optimal amount of work and getting less than optimal results you're over-training. For example, it's very common for men to over-train their chests and arms, since these areas often get highest priority.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:53 pm 
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"I'm sure Kenny's read this and it's pretty well known stuff. I don't see how it makes a difference to either side." - stuward

I agree. It's possible to train with higher reps and still keep training volume relatively low.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 5:02 pm 
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stuward wrote:
robertscott wrote:
...
Quote:
Yes, some individual have more of one muscle fiber type than another.

Great. Post it.

Quote:
But then Dr Squat disagrees with you, so I guess he must be an idiot.


[color=#000080]You have provide nothing to to demonstrate that Hatfield and I disagree at this point.

Quote:
it's on his website. Do your own homework
....


Here's the article where Dr. Squat talks about different fibre makeup for different people. http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge-ba ... ning-split

I'm sure Kenny's read this and it's pretty well known stuff. I don't see how it makes a difference to either side.


I was just mentioning it to show that different people have different fibre make ups


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:20 am 
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I am glad I brought it up. Sometimes a heated discussion brings things out.

Having trained now for 2 1/2 years, I may not be an expert, but I'm beginning to learn the difference between what I read and what happens in the gym, and what I see in the mirror.

The original article intrigued me because it mentioned so many things that I have learned work for me. Low reps at high intensity, using the box for squats to help judge depth, and a preference for over head press. Also, the strong assertion that "hard gainer" just means getting your story straight on food and sleep. With all of that lining up with experience, I was left with floor press as the only really completely new idea. Well, that and the presentation of all of that in one place and one program.

Believe it or not, the program he outlines is 75% of what I'm doing already, or have done in my best cycles. The really new thing I've never tried is OHP and floor press together on "bench day". That is the new thing I'm excited to try. Since the rest of the article matches my experience so well, I'm hopeful of seeing something there as well.

Thanks everyone for responding, I did read the entire thread and it was very informative. But in the end you either fish or cut bait, and it's time to fish on this one.

EDIT: Also "Brawn" is now on the reading list.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:49 am 
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Personally i do believe long-limbed individuals(ectomorph) need to pay more attention to arms and legs(thus isolation), simply because the limbs are longer and harder to fill out which makes them unaesthetic from a bodybuilding view(if their goal is bodybuilding). As an ectomorph myself i followed strictly a only-compound exercise program and my arms are very much behind. i also respond better to higher reps it even gives me strength increases .i disagree however that this is because of the slow twitch muscle fibres. i do not believe that these can grow , if that would be the case marathon runners would be big. I believe it has more to do with effect of carb uptake/ glycogen storage .


excuse my bad english


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Brawn

This book is one of the better one's on the market and it's been around forever.

Brawn is a book for "hard gainers" (ectomophs).

The templet of book is high intensity, low volume.

Kenny Croxdale[/color]


Beyond Brawn (Brawn was OOP when I came to it) was hugely influential on me. It's why I own a trap bar, at the very least, and why I went out and learned to deadlift and squat. Great stuff. Stuart McRobert made a big impact on me, and so did guys I discovered through him (Christie and Kelso, especially.)

I just wish I'd stopped there and hadn't discovered HIT, high-volume training, etc. and just stayed at 5 x 5. Oh well.

But yeah, "just enough to gain" and "heavy but not a lot" works really well for us long-and-narrow types for getting stronger and gaining muscle. That article echoes a lot of what I wish I'd know when I started. I don't train that way now, but my goals now aren't the same anymore. Still, good stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:26 am 
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Jeannay wrote:
Personally i do believe long-limbed individuals(ectomorph) need to pay more attention to arms and legs(thus isolation), simply because the limbs are longer and harder to fill out which makes them unaesthetic from a bodybuilding view(if their goal is bodybuilding).


Compound Exercises

Compound exercise overload smaller muscle groups.

Lat Pulldown

The biceps give out long before the lats do.

Bench Press

The triceps are exhausted long before the pecs are.

Isolation Exercises

Isolation movement have very little value in gaining mass.

5'8"/173 cm Tall/132 lb/60 kg Lifter

A lifter who performs isolation exercise is NOT going to fill out.

A lifter that size NO matter what exercises they do will be scrawny!

Filling Out

The ONLY way a scrawny ectomorph is going to "Fill Out" is by gaining weight.

Anabolic Response

Compound exercises promote a greater anabolic response. Isolation movement provide a very small anabolic response.

Again, compound exercises overload small groups. Thus, the "long limbed ectomorph" is obtaining as much or more work than from an isolation movement.

Quote:
As an ectomorph myself i followed strictly a only-compound exercise program and my arms are very much behind.


You arm are growing and will catch up.

Quote:
i also respond better to higher reps it even gives me strength increases .


Ectomorphs usually respond well to higher reps. The higher reps provide an anabolic pump.

Quote:
i disagree however that this is because of the slow twitch muscle fibres.


Some hypertrophy of slow muscle fiber does occur.

Again, moderately higher reps provide an anabolic pump, triggering Type II muscle fiber growth.


Quote:
i do not believe that these can grow , if that would be the case marathon runners would be big.


Poor Comparison

Comparing higher reps to someone who goes out and runs 26 miles make NO sense.

4 hours 26 minutes of NON Stop Squats

The average US male runs a marathon in 4 hours and 26 minutes. That means they NEVER stop running for that time period.

Thus, with you analogy, you'd need to squat for 4 hours 26 minutes NON-Stop.

You need to rethink your analogy.

Tooth Pick Legs

If you were to squat NON-Stop for 4 hour plus, you legs and the rest of your body would look like a tooth pick.

Arm/Leg Compound Movements

If you really want to focus on your "Long limbs" in training you need to.

1) Narrow Grip Bench--this places more of the work load on the triceps.

2) Supinated Narrow Grip Lat Pulldowns--this place more of the work load on the biceps.

3) Leg Press--this places more of the work load on the quads.


Quote:
I believe it has more to do with effect of carb uptake/ glycogen storage .


Glycogen restoration plays a role with increasing muscle mass.

However, it is NOT the reason.

The reason is that "The Pump" creates an anabolic environment for muscle growth.

"The Pump" increases in mTOR, growth hormone, downgrades of myostatin, etc.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Jeannay wrote:
Personally i do believe long-limbed individuals(ectomorph) need to pay more attention to arms and legs(thus isolation), simply because the limbs are longer and harder to fill out which makes them unaesthetic from a bodybuilding view(if their goal is bodybuilding).


Compound Exercises

Compound exercise overload smaller muscle groups.

Lat Pulldown

The biceps give out long before the lats do.

If your Biceps gives out before your lats do on a LAT pulldown, you do it wrong. And if your Biceps gives out your lats be wont be stimulated optimally?

Bench Press

The triceps are exhausted long before the pecs are.

same

Isolation Exercises

Isolation movement have very little value in gaining mass.

Compound movements are the basis of a program but isolation can be used to bring weak body parts up. IF your limbs are long you have a harder time filling these out yes ,

5'8"/173 cm Tall/132 lb/60 kg Lifter

A lifter who performs isolation exercise is NOT going to fill out.

A lifter that size NO matter what exercises they do will be scrawny!

i dont know what these numbers should represent. who is 60kg? ofc he is scrawny

Filling Out

The ONLY way a scrawny ectomorph is going to "Fill Out" is by gaining weight.

yes gaining weight , however some areas will fill out quicker than others especially if some of the areas are LOONGer

Anabolic Response

Compound exercises promote a greater anabolic response. Isolation movement provide a very small anabolic response.

the small increase in testosterone compound movements provide over isolation does $h1t. I Agree however (as i already said) compound movements should be the basis

Again, compound exercises overload small groups. Thus, the "long limbed ectomorph" is obtaining as much or more work than from an isolation movement.

Long limbed ectomorph=> a characteristic of the ectomorph is having long limbs ^^, yes totally squats usually beat leg extensions, because more muscle groups are involved, however who said we cannot add the isolation?

Quote:
As an ectomorph myself i followed strictly a only-compound exercise program and my arms are very much behind.


You arm are growing and will catch up.

No they wont, people who whose arms grow proportinally fine by just doing compound movements are genetically gifted in the arm department. Again i was there believing pullups make my arms grow(some even believe deadlifts make their arms grow) guess what my arms are my weakest bodypart, they grew a little bit but the other muscle overpowers them, this is exactly what i mean by just following a compound-only program; some areas will respond simply better than others and you might have a hard timeto be proportional &aesthetic

Quote:
i also respond better to higher reps it even gives me strength increases .


Ectomorphs usually respond well to higher reps. The higher reps provide an anabolic pump.

Quote:
i disagree however that this is because of the slow twitch muscle fibres.


Some hypertrophy of slow muscle fiber does occur.

Again, moderately higher reps provide an anabolic pump, triggering Type II muscle fiber growth.


Quote:
i do not believe that these can grow , if that would be the case marathon runners would be big.


Poor Comparison

Comparing higher reps to someone who goes out and runs 26 miles make NO sense.
Really? if i run 20 hours or just 5 minutes i still target the same type of muscle fibres no? show me a study where red muscle fibres hypertrophy pls

4 hours 26 minutes of NON Stop Squats

The average US male runs a marathon in 4 hours and 26 minutes. That means they NEVER stop running for that time period.

Thus, with you analogy, you'd need to squat for 4 hours 26 minutes NON-Stop.

You need to rethink your analogy.

Tooth Pick Legs

If you were to squat NON-Stop for 4 hour plus, you legs and the rest of your body would look like a tooth pick.

Arm/Leg Compound Movements

If you really want to focus on your "Long limbs" in training you need to.

1) Narrow Grip Bench--this places more of the work load on the triceps.

2) Supinated Narrow Grip Lat Pulldowns--this place more of the work load on the biceps.

3) Leg Press--this places more of the work load on the quads. [/color]

Those are very good alternatives! compound movement which have the targettet muscle as a prime mover, still if your arms are already behind you might have trouble getting them to target(i feel narrow grip bench in my front delts. I also know some guys who have trouble doing dips and narrow grip bench press(elbows) but are fine with cable extensions and doing dips and CGp after them), (supinated narrow grip lat pulldowns are for me THE best lat exercise ;) ) (Leg press: Long limbed lifters usually have the problem that their ass grows more than their quads do on leg presses and squats. This is not bad from a powerlifting/strength related view, but undesired from a bodybuilding perspective), in addition compound movements are usually much more draining than pure isolation.
Quote:
I believe it has more to do with effect of carb uptake/ glycogen storage .


Glycogen restoration plays a role with increasing muscle mass.

However, it is NOT the reason.

The reason is that "The Pump" creates an anabolic environment for muscle growth.

"The Pump" increases in mTOR, growth hormone, downgrades of myostatin, etc.

[color=#FF0000]100% agreed I believe you misunderstood what i wanted to say, maybe i just wrote it very bad (again my english sucks). COmpound movements are and SHOuld be the basis of every program, but isolation have their place. especially for a long limbed lifter, who needs to place more focus on the limbs. or you will have a hard time developing a proportional physique.



Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Lat Pulldown

The biceps give out long before the lats do.


Jeannay wrote:
If your Biceps gives out before your lats do on a LAT pulldown, you do it wrong. And if your Biceps gives out your lats be wont be stimulated optimally?


The smaller biceps give out are going to give out before your lats. That is one of the reasons a Pre-Exhaust Lat movement such as straight arm are performed prior to a traditional Lat Pulldown.

Let me reiterate, the Lats are NOT fully overloaded with a traditional Lat Pulldown

The straight arm pullover or for that matter a bent arm pullover places the workload on the lats, taking the biceps out of the equation.

The pullover is then followed with a traditional lat pulldown that employs the biceps.

This insure that the lats are completely overloaded.

Nautilus

Arthur Jones revolutionized weight training for the masses with Nautilus.

Nautilus took bodybuilding concepts such as Pre-Exhausting to insure that larger muscle were completely overloaded for maximal muscle growth.

The Pre-Exhaust concept was around before Jones and it is still one of the tenants of bodybuilding...because it works.


Jeannay wrote:
Compound movements are the basis of a program but isolation can be used to bring weak body parts up. IF your limbs are long you have a harder time filling these out yes ,


Gaining Weight will "fill out" your limbs.

Compound movements will fill out your limbs.

Performing movements as I have dictated below with compound movement will "fill out" your limbs
.

5'8"/173 cm Tall/132 lb/60 kg Lifter

A lifter who performs isolation exercise is NOT going to fill out.

A lifter that size NO matter what exercises they do will be scrawny!


i dont know what these numbers should represent. who is 60kg? ofc he is scrawny[/quote]

"These numbers" are an illustration of a scrawny ectomorph. The take home message is that NOTHING...compound nor isolation or the combination is going to "fill out" a skinny ectomorph's limbs.

The ONLY thing that will do that is GAINING weight.


Filling Out

The ONLY way a scrawny ectomorph is going to "Fill Out" is by gaining weight.


yes gaining weight , however some areas will fill out quicker than others especially if some of the areas are LOONGer


"There ain't NO free lunch."

Everything takes time. Large muscle grow faster than small muscles.


Long limbed ectomorph=> a characteristic of the ectomorph is having long limbs ^^, yes totally squats usually beat leg extensions, because more muscle groups are involved, however who said we cannot add the isolation?

Return on Investment

Why perform movement that take more than they give back?

The money exercises are compound movements. You garner a huge return on your investment.

There is very little return on isolation exercises. You expend time and energy on movement that cut into your recovery time and expend calories that you could be using to repair and build muscle.

Stimulate and Grow

What you want is to provide stimulation that creates an anabolic environment for muscle growth. Then you need rest and allow the muscle to grow.

Beating Muscles Into Submission

Let me stated it once more, the smaller "limb" muscles are overload in a compound movement.

Following up with isolation exercises beat the smaller muscles into submission.

How much?

So, exactly how many exercises do you need to encourage muscle growth?

How much is too much?

Intensity

Without a doubt intensity is a major component of insuring muscle growth.

Periodization Training

You need to cycle you light, medium and hard training sessions.

With that said, on hard all out days, if you can still walk over to the Leg Extension machine after performing all out squats or leg presses, you didn't really max out.

Leg Extensions

Leg extension have virtually NO value, except in rehabilitation...and then it is limited.


Jeannay wrote:
No they wont, people who whose arms grow proportinally fine by just doing compound movements are genetically gifted in the arm department. Again i was there believing pullups make my arms grow(some even believe deadlifts make their arms grow) guess what my arms are my weakest bodypart, they grew a little bit but the other muscle overpowers them, this is exactly what i mean by just following a compound-only program; some areas will respond simply better than others and you might have a hard timeto be proportional &aesthetic


If your "limbs" aren't growing with compound movements, you doing something wrong. Without knowing more, it is impossible to know where you went wrong.

Arm/Leg Compound Movements

If you really want to focus on your "Long limbs" in training you need to.

1) Narrow Grip Bench--this places more of the work load on the triceps.

2) Supinated Narrow Grip Lat Pulldowns--this place more of the work load on the biceps.

3) Leg Press--this places more of the work load on the quads.
[/color]
Jeannay wrote:
Those are very good alternatives! compound movement which have the targettet muscle as a prime mover, still if your arms are already behind you might have trouble getting them to target(i feel narrow grip bench in my front delts. I also know some guys who have trouble doing dips and narrow grip bench press(elbows) but are fine with cable extensions and doing dips and CGp after them), (supinated narrow grip lat pulldowns are for me THE best lat exercise ;) ) (Leg press: Long limbed lifters usually have the problem that their ass grows more than their quads do on leg presses and squats. This is not bad from a powerlifting/strength related view, but undesired from a bodybuilding perspective), in addition compound movements are usually much more draining than pure isolation.


Targeted Muscles

The overload in a lat pulldown is the biceps. That MEANS you are working the crap out of them. You are overloading them. You are targeting them.

That applies to the triceps in the bench press.

I have explained this as best as I can.

As the little some woman said in the movie Poltergeist...

"My work here is DONE!"

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:36 pm 
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I think this thread has reached the point of maximum benefit.

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