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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:23 am 
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mohamed wrote:
My idea in make more percentage of intensity in apart than another
And that's what's meant by "isolate".

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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:07 pm 
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[/quote]And that's what's meant by "isolate".[/quote]
Ok
But in bage 85 in the book on row machine it tell us that the exercise with (overhand-natural-undedrhand) grips changes the target part of the muscle
Are this right or wrong too?

The second thing i see that the diffrent grips wouldn't make any change no more than biceps will work more in underhand grip


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Yes, grip changes things but not the way that the book says.

"Hand spacing: Spacing your hands farther apart will target the outer lats,
whereas spacing your hands closer together will isolate the Inner lats."

This is nonsense. A wider grip will shift focus to different muscle but there is still no difference between inner and outer lats. As Robert said, the Teres Major may be those mythical "outer lats".

The next paragraph talks about upper and lower lats. Again, this is more nonsense.

Here is the author's web page. http://www.drnickevans.com/
His e-mail is here: nick@drnickevans.com

Write to him and ask him to explain how lats can be targeted upper and lower, inner and outer. While you're there, ask him about upper and lower abs.

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Last edited by stuward on Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:14 pm 
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:lol: you are right
Why i tired you all and myself when i can ask the author
Thx for website link soon i will come back again with the answer


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:48 pm 
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The author has already stated his myth-based opinion. Asking him about it will just result in him restating his nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:00 am 
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Wide grip pronated => more teres major, rear delts and especially Lower traps
narrow grip Supinated/neutral => more lats, because increased ROM

I have tried to target my lower lats , but i never succeeded. That being said i have stupid high lat insertions and there are alot of bodybuilders who swear its possible.
Inner lats= lower lats Outer lats=upper lats


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:48 am 
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I think "inner lats" means an exercise that uses the lats as well as traps and rhomboids. "Lower lats" means lats and lower traps, and maybe obliques. Upper or outer likely means teres major and various rotator cuff muscles, and in some cases the serratus anterior.

When bodybuilders talk about mythological parts of muscles, the reality is that it does matter for advanced competitive bodybuilders, because it is targeting various small muscles. These small muscles need to be abnormally large in proportion to other muscles due to how it looks in contest condition. Or at least certain ones do, like the serratus anterior for example. For 99.999% of people this is not applicable.

Grip width has more to do with posterior deltoid activation or lack thereof. The wide grip vertical pulling movement is a completely different shoulder articulation that does not use the posterior deltoids at all, whereas medium and narrow grip use them (extension vs adduction).

Hand position just affects what is doing the elbow flexion.


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:14 am 
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Ironman wrote:
I think "inner lats" means an exercise that uses the lats as well as traps and rhomboids. "Lower lats" means lats and lower traps, and maybe obliques. Upper or outer likely means teres major and various rotator cuff muscles, and in some cases the serratus anterior.

When bodybuilders talk about mythological parts of muscles, the reality is that it does matter for advanced competitive bodybuilders, because it is targeting various small muscles. These small muscles need to be abnormally large in proportion to other muscles due to how it looks in contest condition. Or at least certain ones do, like the serratus anterior for example. For 99.999% of people this is not applicable.

Grip width has more to do with posterior deltoid activation or lack thereof. The wide grip vertical pulling movement is a completely different shoulder articulation that does not use the posterior deltoids at all, whereas medium and narrow grip use them (extension vs adduction).

Hand position just affects what is doing the elbow flexion.



http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Lat ... eling.html Posterior delt = synergist.
Lower lats: http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/d/3/d37de-1.jpg part which looks "inner" when relaxed http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7wepZeuWDU8/T ... +Stubbs+(6).jpg

"Upper or outer likely means teres major and various rotator cuff muscles, and in some cases the serratus anterior. " yes they get very often mistaken and just summed up "upper lats" (again there are alot of bodybuilders even in natural competitions who are convinced that upper and lower lats themselves can be targetted) same as the brachialis gets the name "lower biceps".


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Really i learned very much from this topic from every word was writen here
I now changed my information about this point to that when i changing the width between my hands this will make the assistant muscles different alittle and no thing happen to primary muscle and all of this process i don't need it until i pro bodybuilder to make this assistant muscles more strength and more definition but if you are going to he gym just for fitness or look for good shape you must forget every thing about the grip width and train with your shoulder width or more alittle
This all thing
And i wait the author of the book to replay me


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:59 am 
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Well Jeannay, Posterior deltoid is listed as a synergist because in general it is, however it's not really with the grip shown. The muscle does contract a little during adduction, but it's not really doing anything. That's why I prefer a more narrow grip on vertical pulling.

Yea, lower biceps is another good example, being the brachialis. Or lower abs which are internal hip flexors. Outer pecs being the pectoralis minor and serratus anterior, where as inner pecs is when the major sternal heads are emphasized.

The main problem is poor terminology by the pros, and everyone else copying what they do.


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:42 am 
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Ironman wrote:
...
The main problem is poor terminology by the pros, and everyone else copying what they do.


Yes, people that write anatomy books should be held to a higher standard, especially if they they advertise themselves as an MD.

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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:57 am 
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Again
When i searching i found in this link http://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/d ... iceps-curl
that i can target inner biceps and here no mistake in terminology because no assistant muscle can make this movement
And when search in our site http://exrx.net/Muscles/BicepsBrachii.html
Found the samething
Can explain it because soon i will be mad :)


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:46 am 
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mohamed wrote:
Again
When i searching i found in this link http://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/d ... iceps-curl
that i can target inner biceps and here no mistake in terminology because no assistant muscle can make this movement
And when search in our site http://exrx.net/Muscles/BicepsBrachii.html
Found the samething
Can explain it because soon i will be mad :)


you're obsessing over a lot of very inconsequential stuff

Yes, some curl variations will ever-so-slightly favour different heads of the biceps, or the brachialis or the brachiordialis or whatever, but it's not worth worrying about.

Just be content with curl variations = biceps exercise


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 Post subject: Re: wide and narrow grip
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:50 am 
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mohamed wrote:
Again
When i searching i found in this link http://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/d ... iceps-curl
that i can target inner biceps and here no mistake in terminology because no assistant muscle can make this movement
And when search in our site http://exrx.net/Muscles/BicepsBrachii.html
Found the samething
Can explain it because soon i will be mad :)


Inner biceps is probably the short head of the biceps which lies inside and the outer head is the long head of the biceps. As the name implies BIceps consists of 2 heads: the short and the long one.(you see hear the two heads clearly seperated : http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/6420 ... ontvz8.jpg ) The wider the grip on a barbell curl the more you emphasize the inner head, the closer the grip the more you emphasize the long head. Also the thumb/wrist position is important. the short head gets more emphasized when doing work with a supinated hand, while the long head also works when moving weight with a neutral grip. The most injuriesof the biceps occur in the long head, the long head is also the one who gives a peak (IF your biceps tend to peak) because he lies higher as can be seen very clearly in the pic. Im not sure if a complete isolation is possible. I also wouldnt worry much about the different heads. if you want to get big biceps, use compound movements like back rows or pullups with a supinated(palms facing you) hand and in addition maybe isolation ( for example in case your arms do not grow proportionally or you have very long arms which make your arms still appear small in comparison the the rest of the body) that will hit BOTH heads very well. What i find impossible is targetting the LOwer portion of the biceps and the upper portion since the muscle fibres run from top to bottom it would give no sense. i hope you can understand my english xD.


Ironman wrote:
Well Jeannay, Posterior deltoid is listed as a synergist because in general it is, however it's not really with the grip shown. The muscle does contract a little during adduction, but it's not really doing anything. That's why I prefer a more narrow grip on vertical pulling.
[/quote]

You are right! i was definately wrong, a more narrow grip emphasizes much more the rear delts! Sorry. Now I can remember the soreness of my rear part of the delts when i tried to learn muscle ups to swing over the bar. i do believe though that the rear delts play a role(maybe stabilization or something) in adduction even if its not listed here.


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