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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:21 am 
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That's a good sum-up. The 15% is very close. I have visible abs when flexed and in certain light. The aim is to get around 10%.
How's your recomp?

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:19 am 
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is one really so lean with 15%? (picture)

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am 
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15% is lean for women. For men, 15% is generally the point where you should stop bulking and start cutting. It's not lean but it's not unfit either. Among middle aged or older men it's good and would look almost ripped. Older people carry more fat internally.

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:51 am 
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Bob - how are working your IF?

I've been flirting with the 16/8 protocol. Kind of half a$$ed attempt whilst I get my head around it more however i'm struggling to find the time to get my head around it more. Biggest reason is it fits my lifestyle very well. I've realised my lifestyle has forced me to get used to a lot of the "cons" of IF - training whilst hungry being one, going way beyond the hunger feeling, several hours without eating, and "making up for it".

In reading about it I realised that I just need to skip breakfast and have a late lunch to fit the 16/8 method. Also, due to my lifestyle i've had to get used to "feasting" - sometimes/often putting away well over 2000 calories in one sitting.

So, i've been missing breakfast and having my first meal mid afternoon. I also eat constantly from around 11pm, till after midnight. Sometimes it's not quite been 16 hours but more like 14 before I eat again.

I'm at the point now where I have abs and obliques, especially in the morning, most significant thing is I can see my serratus. Can get into smaller jeans. The lower back fat is actually more obvious now, it's not quite lower back, it's between the lower back and sides. b/w is pretty much exactly the same. I would say i'm abut 12%, too, definitely not below 10 yet.


KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:01 am 
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KPj wrote:
Bob - how are working your IF?

I've been flirting with the 16/8 protocol. Kind of half a$$ed attempt whilst I get my head around it more however i'm struggling to find the time to get my head around it more. Biggest reason is it fits my lifestyle very well. I've realised my lifestyle has forced me to get used to a lot of the "cons" of IF - training whilst hungry being one, going way beyond the hunger feeling, several hours without eating, and "making up for it".

In reading about it I realised that I just need to skip breakfast and have a late lunch to fit the 16/8 method. Also, due to my lifestyle i've had to get used to "feasting" - sometimes/often putting away well over 2000 calories in one sitting.


Yo Kenny, I've sort of abandoned IF. Not really, but kinda. If I train early in the day then I'll still train fasted with BCAA, but if I have time for something solid I will not, although I keep it carbless. I was finding that, like you, last thing at night I was having to force feed myself a ridiculous amount of protein to hit my daily target, sometimes having to eat like half a kilo of meat with no veg and it wasn't doing my digestion any favours. Having a large, solid, proteiny breakfast just makes life easier.

It all just depends on how I'm feeling on the day. If I'm up early I'll take the dog for a walk on an empty stomach, and then when I come home I'll either hit the gym fasted if it's early and I'm not hungry, or if I fancy something to eat I'll eat some eggs or meat n veg.

I never really worry about sticking to 16/8 or whatever, I just do what I feel like on the day.

KPj wrote:
So, i've been missing breakfast and having my first meal mid afternoon. I also eat constantly from around 11pm, till after midnight. Sometimes it's not quite been 16 hours but more like 14 before I eat again.

I'm at the point now where I have abs and obliques, especially in the morning, most significant thing is I can see my serratus. Can get into smaller jeans. The lower back fat is actually more obvious now, it's not quite lower back, it's between the lower back and sides. b/w is pretty much exactly the same. I would say i'm abut 12%, too, definitely not below 10 yet.


KPj


What I found was I would have a huge dinner with the Mrs (we always have a huge dinner together) and wouldn't be hungry again all night, but I'd still need to force feed myself some protein before bed. Breaking the fast earlier like I do now means I don't have to face a huge meal of meat every night before bed, and can have something much smaller. So whereas before pre-bed I was putting away like 80g of protein, now it's more like 30g, which is much more manageable. Means there's room on my plate for veg too which can only be a good thing.

That's good that you're losing weight still. What I find with IF is that the initial weight loss is very encouraging, but it plateaus quickly.

So to summarise my ramblings: I break my fast much earlier now, and sometimes eat within an hour of getting up. It means I can get away with eating a bit less later in the day, which is easier on my psyche and digestive tract. I'll still train fasted if it's super early in the day, otherwise I use more of a carb backloading sort of set up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:18 am 
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Interestin'. I probably explained wrong but, the late night feast is something i've adapted to now. It was more a product of working and not having a chance to eat anything for at least 4-5 hours. Late at night is one of my prime times to eat, i've adapted to eating loads at that time now - put away loads of meat, loads of veg, throw in loads of fat and afterwards make up a smoothie made of fruit and milk (and/or yoghurt). WHen doing this i don't feel furiously hungry in the morning so it makes it kind of easy to skip breakfast.

The only real change I had to make for the 16/8 protocol was missing breakfast and 2-3 meals after. I used to eat early afternoon AND late afternoon, now i'm not eating at all in the day until mid-late afternoon. I keep this meal high in protein. Tend to have some yogurt and berries or somethin', too, though. I train around 8pm, normally. Then eat a huge meal afterwards.

I don't count calories, btw. Not yet anyway.

I must admit I kinda feel good after getting over the initial "omg i'm so hungry i might actually die" feeling.

Not sure if i'll stick to it, I want to give it a fair shot just to see what I learn from it. It's opened my mind a little. However I think i'm more of a frequent feeder. Diet will be much easier when (or, if!) I get a more consistent schedule.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:30 am 
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that's good it's working for you, I'm definitely doing a bit better with it now I don't have to force feed myself so much before bed.

the main take home lesson I think to be learned from IF variations is that you won't go all catabolic and lose muslce if you don't eat every 3 hours or whatever. Just hit your daily target and you'll be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:44 am 
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Progress report...thought I would punch in and just bring up that what I am doing is working pretty well.

I am at 236, ~18% bodyfat, from 238 ~25% a half year ago (via waist/hip calculations, I'm not using calipers or DEXA or whatever). My resting heart rate is almost exactly 60bpm and my blood pressure is in normal ranges again. I have been getting a lot of comments when I see people I haven't seen in a few months.

Here's what I have been doing...I know the low-carbers among you will probably chastise me but apparently this is what works (for me).

Stick to ~3000kcal diet, hitting at least 200g protein a day, eating 5 times a day minimum. I eat a lot of peanut butter. I make it a point to take in at least 100g carbs a day. On weekends, I just try to hit my protein requirement, don't sweat the total kcal, and drink little or no booze. Primary carb sources=sweet potato and oats. Primary protein sources = whey, chicken, pot roast, turkey. Lots of veggies. Sleep as much as reasonable.

I changed my training significantly (so much for 200 TGUs). Added some small amount of very light cardio every single day (30-45 mins stationary cycling). I lift four days a week. My workouts are as follows. FWIW I bump the 3x5's for 2.5 (upper) or 5 (lower) every week.

"Rest" Cardio Only
Bench/Row Day (3x5/3x5, 5x10@50%, 5x10@50%) + Cardio
Squat Day 3x5, 5x10@50% +Cardio
"rest" Cardio Only
Press/Row Day (3x5/3x5, 5x10@50%, 5x10@50%) +Cardio
"rest" Cardio only
Deadlift Day 3x5, 5x10@50% +Cardio

I have added almost 15% to all of my lifts since I started with this routine, except my squats, which have stagnated at an ugly 330 (down from 350). I think the stagnation here is just from squatting once a week. I will probably add a 5x10@50% light squat on Deadlift day in the future mostly for the practice. Not that the lifts are anything to brag about but progress is being made at a steady clip. I feel like the added volume and focused primary lift sessions have helped with the body comp in a major way. All the internet advice that I read indicated that cardio and volume was contraindicted for what I was trying to accomplish, but apparently, that advice was wrong (for me).

The downside, of course, is that nothing fits anymore. Same pants sizes, but the waist is looser and the legs are about to pop. I need a whole new shirt wardrobe.


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:01 pm 
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I don't mean to be negative, as you are making good progress, but 236lbs at 18% bodyfat would mean you were carrying 194lbs of lean mass. That'd make you a very strong boy indeed.

Not trying to piss on your bonfire, just making you aware of how much those bodyfat calculation suck.

EDIT - I'm assuming you're average height, if you're really tall then it would make more sense


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Quote:
Not trying to piss on your bonfire, just making you aware of how much those bodyfat calculation suck.

If he dropped his waist from 45 to 35" or so, it would look like an improvement of that magnitude. It would have also had to be accompanied by 15 lbs of muscle gain over 6 months. Not impossible but unlikely on a drug free program.

The low carb (even though not ketogenic, 100g/day is still low carb) diet was probably the main driver for the changes. It is likely that the diet has made a difference in liver health and reduced abdominal fat. It's interesting that it had this effect even without reduced calories. I expect that fat elsewhere has increased along with some muscle growth but in any case, it's likely that his health has increased dramatically.

Tuco, can you confirm if you had a pot belly before, and has it changed? Have you noticed any other changes?

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:59 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Quote:
Not trying to piss on your bonfire, just making you aware of how much those bodyfat calculation suck.

If he dropped his waist from 45 to 35" or so, it would look like an improvement of that magnitude. It would have also had to be accompanied by 15 lbs of muscle gain over 6 months. Not impossible but unlikely on a drug free program.

The low carb (even though not ketogenic, 100g/day is still low carb) diet was probably the main driver for the changes. It is likely that the diet has made a difference in liver health and reduced abdominal fat. It's interesting that it had this effect even without reduced calories. I expect that fat elsewhere has increased along with some muscle growth but in any case, it's likely that his health has increased dramatically.

Tuco, can you confirm if you had a pot belly before, and has it changed? Have you noticed any other changes?



My waist dropped from 43 to 38". I am life time drug free. I am 6' tall. I am taking creatine but was not taking it at my previous 238. So I am probably lighter now, when I'm not retaining additional water. To be honest, I don't really care if the calculations suck, or if I am really 20% instead of 18% :roll: I'm not lean, but defintiely leanER. I wear a 36" Levis pant and it is a little loose at the waist and tight everywhere else, especially calves and "seat".

I had a potbelly before, with much more noticeable "love handles". Now I still have a bit of a belly but the handles have leaned wayyyy out (though still there a little bit). As far as bodily changes, my upper chest, neck, shoulders, traps, back have all grown pretty dramatically. I cannot button the top two buttons of shirts that used to fit at the same weight. The sleeves of my old button up shirts are now a solid inch or two too short when my arms are extended. My wife yells at me and tells me not to lose my neck.

My current lifts, all 3x5, on a slow weekly linear progression of 2.5+per for upper, 5+ for lower (and all of these lifts are currently "easy" except the squat):

OHP: 155
Bench: 205
Squat: 330
Deadlift: 390


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 Post subject: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:11 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Quote:
Tuco, can you confirm if you had a pot belly before, and has it changed? Have you noticed any other changes?


Forgot to mention the "other changes".

Dramatically increased focus and mental clarity (this one is greatly increased lately), sustainable workout intensity and energy and a boost to overall confidence and drive. Probably psychosomatic?


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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Well, regardless of the actual numbers, it sounds like you're making very real significant progress. Keep doing what you're doing because it's working.

Quote:
Probably psychosomatic?

Probably from dietary improvements and improved fitness.

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 Post subject: Re: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:10 pm 
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I wasn't trying to be disparaging, just pointing out that bodyfat calculations are not to be trusted


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 Post subject: Sympathy Recomp 2013
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:43 am 
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robertscott wrote:
I wasn't trying to be disparaging, just pointing out that bodyfat calculations are not to be trusted


No worries, friend :) I choose manic enthusiasm over reality in most situations. Can't nobody break MY stride.


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