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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:35 am 
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Just went to an new cross-fit gym. I'm a 'senior trainee' and have been exercising for years. This class was moderated by trainer who worked w/ students to ensure proper technique. Several of the exercise movements required hyperextension of the shoulders and lower back. Maybe I'm old school- but I was always taught never to hyperextend. When I questioned another (younger) student in the class - they replied that they have always used this form. What is the current science and safe practice on hyperextension? :scratch:
~G


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:45 am 
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My opinion is that you shouldn't hyper-extend the lower back. Shoulders are more individual. Some people can do it and some can't. There are some who are critical of crossfit for those reasons.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:16 am 
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In general, in a Crossfit gym technique like that isn't just allowed but encouraged. Some get away with it but many don't. Those who don't normally get told they're not "hardcore" enough.

I would advise you went to another gym, to be honest. Unless they allow you to do it your own way.

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:18 am 
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KPj wrote:
Those who don't normally get told they're not "hardcore" enough.


that's the problem when people buy into an ideology (couldn't think of a better word) completely without question. When it is challenged they get defensive and personal.

People with open minds don't resort to telling people they're not "hardcore" to try and prove their point.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:35 am 
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KPj wrote:
In general, in a Crossfit gym technique like that isn't just allowed but encouraged. Some get away with it but many don't. Those who don't normally get told they're not "hardcore" enough.

I would advise you went to another gym, to be honest. Unless they allow you to do it your own way.

KPj


Bad Technique Encouraged

KPj nailed it.

Cross Fitters have a great work ethic. However, they are short on brains.

Their focus is on who's can withstand the most pain.

The Cross Fit mentality of pushing it like this has caused...

Rhabdomyolysis

This is when "muscle fiber breaks down, gets released into the bloodstream, and poisons the kidneys."

Jennifer Buckner, a local nationally rated USA Olympic Lifting, got sucked into participating in a local Cross Fit Team Competition and ended up going to the hospital with with Rahbdomyolysis.

The Paul Barbee Toughness Test

IF Cross Fitter were really serous about determining who is the baddest of the bad, they use the Paul Barbee Test.

Barbee was one of the best powerlifters of the 1980s that I lifted with. Barbee had some mental problem but came up with this unique Toughness Test.

Deadlift Toughness Test

1) A Deadlift for Repetitions Contest.

The individual who deadlifted the most repetition would be crowned as the winner.

However, there was one stipulation.

The Cavaet

With each repetition you pulled up, you opponent/opponents would punch you in the face, as hard as they could.

How Tough

If Cross Fitter really wanted to determine who was the baddest of the bad, they use the Barbee Test or something like it.

Whimp

Before moving on, let me emphatically state that I am a "Real Whimp"...NO Barbee Test for Kenny or going to the hospital with rhabdomyolysis.

Olympic Movements

One of the most insane thing Cross Fit advocates is "Repping Out" to failure with Olympic Movements.

The problem in "Repping Out" is once fatigue sets in, technique falls apart. At that point, all you are thinking about is survival...getting the weight at any expense.

The Right Tool For the Right Job

Cross Fit uses Olympic Movements more as conditioning tool.

The use of Olympic Movement for that purpose is equivalent to using a crescent wrench to hammer a nail.

Why not use a hammer? Duh!

The Truth About Cross Fit
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... t_crossfit

This is an great article by Chris Shugart that examines the Cross Fit cult mentality.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:38 am 
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I like the well rounded, general fitness approach, and the use of body weight exercises plus sprints, and complexes as anaerobic conditioning. While it's good to specialize in the things that are most important to you, it's good to have some ability in other areas. Adding variation to interval training is also good.

That's what I initially liked about crossfit. However I discovered it is very cult-like. While the stuff I mention are valid ideas you can get from crossfit, the rest of it varies from counterproductive to completely insane.

Using a cut-down version of some of their workouts of the day is a good addition to assist with fat loss. It can even build a little strength and endurance in the untrained. Just don't drink the Kool-aid.

So while there are a couple ideas they have that I like, I actually agree with just about all the criticism leveled against them. Crazy volume, too much failure training, terrible form, etc are all things that are just going to get you hurt. No point in spending a lot of time and effort trying to gain increased ability only to end up with decreased ability.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:28 pm 
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my feelings on Crossfit are pretty much the same as Ironman. It'll get you in shape, but if your goal is more specific than "get in shape" it's probably not the best for you.

I will say though that I don't think it's all THAT terrible about the high rep olympic moves. They use such light weight for it I doubt it'll kill you.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:00 pm 
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There's a popular WOD called the Crossfit Total. It consists of a 1RM on Back Squats, Military Presses and Deadlifts, and is intended as a test of limit strength. So far, so good. ... The problem is that Crossfitters don't perform any of these lifts very often. This contributes to poor form, and makes it difficult to judge just how much weight one should attempt. Combine this with a competitive environment where people are constantly trying to outdo each other and their own personal bests, and it's easy to see how accidents happen (and often).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:06 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
I will say though that I don't think it's all THAT terrible about the high rep olympic moves. They use such light weight for it I doubt it'll kill you.


The point is that any movement that you push to fatigue or beyond insure you are going to perform incorrectly.

Again, it is like using a crescent wrench to drive a nail. It will get the job done. However, driving a nail with a crescent wrench doesn't do much for the crescent wrench. It simply not the right tool for the job.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:17 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
I like the well rounded, general fitness approach...


Cross Fit falls under the category of General Physical Preparedness Training.

Cross Fit makes "Jack of all trades and master of none."


Quote:
I discovered it is very cult-like.


You find that in the Westside Powerlifter, as well. They are programmed...much easier than reading or trying to think.

Quote:
Using a cut-down version of some of their workouts of the day is a good addition to assist with fat loss. It can even build a little strength and endurance in the untrained. Just don't drink the Kool-aid.


Cross Fit strips the fat off you as well as taking a good chunk of muscle mass along with it.

Very little Limit Strength is developed with this system.

The program is geared more for Strength Endurance.


Quote:
No point in spending a lot of time and effort trying to gain increased ability only to end up with decreased ability.


And here's the "Money Statement"!

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:18 pm 
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"I will say though that I don't think it's all THAT terrible about the high rep olympic moves. They use such light weight for it I doubt it'll kill you." - robertscott

It could also be problematic when a different WOD prescribes that you perform the same Olympic lift for sets of 1-3 reps with as much weight as possible. Not only are you not used to performing Cleans/Jerks/Snatches with heavy weight, but you've actually practiced performing the lift incorrectly.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:23 am 
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I actually don't know how anyone could watch a Glassman video or interview or read one of his articles, and Castro, too. Especially Castro, and still take it seriously. I think the way "HQ" conduct themselves is a joke. Look at all the "guru's" they have hired and fired, and normally when said guru criticised any one little thing about their system. Mark Rippetoe and Rob Wolf are good examples. Both used to make me "want" to like it but I never could. Then they eventually had enough of the crap and left, subsequently got abuse from the cult, and subsequently hit back, which actually made me lose a little respect for them. Somewhere rip said he done CF for 4 years and is still trying to fix the damage it done. Really? The guy responsible for Starting Strength and Practical Programming - amazing resources - took 4 years to realise how nuts it was???

Lets face it, CF is just circuit training................. Circuit training has been around since forever. You can do it in an insane way, like CF, or a sensible way, like it's always been done. The beauty of circuit training is you can do it whatever way you want which means you can use exercises that won't be near impossible to maintain safe technique when fatigue kicks in, but still get the same training effect (which, in simple terms, is to get really out of breath).

There is actually an article somewhere I think by Dave Castro where they state "technique doesn't matter with high reps and lighter loads".

We've came along way in terms of learning how the body works to know this isn't the case. It just doesn't make sense, either. It basically blames load for injury, which flies in the face of the majority of, for example, lower back injuries, which involve picking up a pen or a newspaper, and not a maximum load.

Your body works off movement patterns which are enforced by "habit" and habit is enforced with repetition. Enforce an unsafe pattern and you will multiply the wear and tear, and also make yourself far more likely to fall into the unsafe pattern if you do try and lift anything heavy.

It's a short sighted approach from people who really should know better... and probably do know better.

As Kenny has quoted for years on this, "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".

Where I will give them credit is they're marketing geniuses. Out with teh safety side of it, the other main criticism was always, "jack of all trades, master of none". Their wild claims of CF being the best way to get strong, fit, explosive, lean, muscular, pretty much everything you would ever want from any kind of exercise all in one WOD. This was always nonesense.

Until the CF games. Ha. Changes everything. Now CF is "specific" - to the CF games!!! Brilliant. Obviously the best way to train for CF games is to do CF! On top of that they position the CF games as representative of "exercise" or "fitness" in general. So if you are competitive in the games you are competitive in the "sport" of exercise/fitness.

As someone with a marketing back ground, I will put my hand up and say they are without a doubt marketing geniuses. Credit where it's due!

KPj

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:27 am 
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I actually only wanted to post this
http://lenoxspartanfitness.com/category ... ase-study/

Got carried away!!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:46 am 
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KPj wrote:
Lets face it, CF is just circuit training................. Circuit training has been around since forever.


Circuit Training

Good point. Cross Fit is simply circuit training repackaged.


Quote:
As Kenny has quoted for years on this, "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".


Vince Lombardi

Actually, Lombardi stated that.


Quote:
Where I will give them credit is they're marketing geniuses.

Until the CF games. Ha. Changes everything. Now CF is "specific" - to the CF games!!! Brilliant. Obviously the best way to train for CF games is to do CF! On top of that they position the CF games as representative of "exercise" or "fitness" in general. So if you are competitive in the games you are competitive in the "sport" of exercise/fitness.

As someone with a marketing back ground, I will put my hand up and say they are without a doubt marketing geniuses. Credit where it's due!

KPj


Another good point.

Hitler's Boy, Joseph Goebbels

Actually, Joseph Goebbels was one of the real marketing geniuses.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

Advertising = Propaganda

The foundation of (Goebbels) great marketing is based on pounding a brand or message into your brain. The key to is the constant bombardment of the same message in a "Blitz Krieg" manner.

Message Repetition

Like most things, it can be misused.

However, repetition is how we learn out "ABC" and everything else in life.

Kenny Croxdale

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