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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:21 pm 
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I'm having bit of trouble figuring out the best way to train for a stronger more functional body.

Do I do a full body workout 3x per week, using squat,lunge,deadlift, upper body push and pull ( in every direction) and a twist, or do i split it up over the week to train more intensely in each movement. My current path of thinking is bilateral movements(monday), unilateral movements(wednesday), multi-compound movements(friday)

I am not focused on building muscle, just growing a strong functional body and keeping it for many years to come ( in my early 20's at the moment)

Would appreciate any advice or a nudge in the right direction to change my approach to training.

thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:49 am 
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Do you train in a gym or at home? With weights? Or only bodyweight exercises? Do you do any other sports? Conditioning (running, cycling)?

I think both variations, a whole-body workout (2 - 3 times a week) or a split (Push/Pull or Upper/Lower for example; 3 - 4 times a week) would be o. k. ... jungledoc often recommends to think of six movements: vertical push and pull (Overhead Press, Pull-ups), horizontal push and pull (Bench Press or Push ups, Row) and a hip and a knee dominant movement (Squat, Deadlift).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:25 am 
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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthrea ... 224&page=1

that's a good beginner routine. at first not with a vertical pull in it, but later pull ups are added.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:56 am 
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Crow wrote:
Do you train in a gym or at home? With weights? Or only bodyweight exercises? Do you do any other sports? Conditioning (running, cycling)?

I think both variations, a whole-body workout (2 - 3 times a week) or a split (Push/Pull or Upper/Lower for example; 3 - 4 times a week) would be o. k. ... jungledoc often recommends to think of six movements: vertical push and pull (Overhead Press, Pull-ups), horizontal push and pull (Bench Press or Push ups, Row) and a hip and a knee dominant movement (Squat, Deadlift).


I train at a gym, also do some form of cardio(am experimenting between which energy system i want to target, unsure which will go best with developing a healthier body) prefer body weight movements as i feel it more natural. Especially with the horizontal push's. Currently am training in the 15-20 rep range till i decide to go down a different route. I really prefer well rounded program, as i define functional exercise by covering all primal movement patterns: in all directions, as you suggested.

Current program looks something like:
Monday/wednesday/friday
lunge 1x (Forward/lateral/rear) x 20 per side alternating
Front/back squat 3x20
Inverted row 3x20
Pushup 3x20 (am messing around with bilateral variations - no weight vest at gym, and no gym partner at the moment)
Pull up (assisted machine) 3x20
Shoulder press/military press 3x20
Torsonator rotation 3 x 20, or cable roation
hanging leg raises 3x20 - not sure if this one is important, i figure it will balance out the lower back muscles as an antagonist.
30s rest between sets

Also doing a unilateral variation of this workout

considerations - SI joint problem, and everted/flat feet ( problem i have had for years), currently working on these two.

additional question: are exercises such as upright row and dips important? they feel too similar to other exercises.

These reps are high, i dont mind lifting heavier (strength or power), but only if it crosses over into daily activities such as running, which im unsure of and dont understand the benefits of training heavier.

ephs wrote:



Thanks for the reply. I read the link. It suggests to start with minimal exercises to avoid overtraining, but at the same time for a novice suggests heavy weight and low reps. Is that not bad for the joints/tendons/ligaments if not the muscles themself? My understanding was as a beginner, train higher reps (8-15 at 6-7/10 intensity), then hypertrophy, strength and then power ( power which is used in the power clean suggested in the program)

The end result seemed to be progressing onto a 2-5 day split program, is that the way to go when you progress, split all movements/ compound lifts onto seperate days? will my progress slow if i continue to do all the primal patterns in the same workout?

Thanks again, Sav.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:01 am 
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sav wrote:
I train at a gym, also do some form of cardio(am experimenting between which energy system i want to target, unsure which will go best with developing a healthier body) prefer body weight movements as i feel it more natural.


Metrosexual

Your phrasing and outlook on training appears to be in the "personal looks" area of a metrosexual.

The problems with that the "appearance" aspect of training is overridden to the detriment training.

In other word, you are more concerned with...

Show Than Go

Metaphorically speaking, "Go" is the vehicle that will get you there. "Go" meaning work, some ass busting, is the ticket.

Natural Movement

"Body Weight Movements" and "Weight Movement" are virtually the same.

The difference is that more weight is employed with "Weighted Movements".


Quote:
Especially with the horizontal push's.


Squats, Shoulder Press, etc are "Horizontal Push's" only weighted.

Quote:
Currently am training in the 15-20 rep range till i decide to go down a different route.


Strength Endurance

15-20 repetition fall into the category of Strength Endurance. While they have a purpose, it doesn't serve much of a purpose.

I really prefer well rounded program, as i define functional exercise by covering all primal movement patterns: in all directions...

Functional Exercise/Primal Movement Patters

Functional misused/overused foofoo term.

Squatting with weight is functional. You develop squatting strength to get our of a chair or off the potty.

Squatting a potty is one of the most "Primal Movement Patters" there is.

Deadlifts increase strength so you can bend down and pick up money you find on the ground.

Shoulder Press' allow you to put things on high shelves.

Quote:
Current program looks something like:
Monday/wednesday/friday
lunge 1x (Forward/lateral/rear) x 20 per side alternating
Front/back squat 3x20
Inverted row 3x20
Pushup 3x20 (am messing around with bilateral variations - no weight vest at gym, and no gym partner at the moment)
Pull up (assisted machine) 3x20
Shoulder press/military press 3x20
Torsonator rotation 3 x 20, or cable roation
hanging leg raises 3x20 - not sure if this one is important, i figure it will balance out the lower back muscles as an antagonist.
30s rest between sets

Also doing a unilateral variation of this workout


Program

You program look okay.

Quote:
considerations - SI joint problem, and everted/flat feet ( problem i have had for years), currently working on these two.


If it hurts, don't do it.

I have empathy for your problem.

The training solution (as you know) is to utilize movement that don't aggravate your condition.

additional question: are exercises such as upright row and dips important? they feel too similar to other exercises.

Dips

Dips are an excellent exercise. They are basically a Decline Bench Press.

Changes

Any changes in the angle, hand spacing, foot spacing, etc turn makes it a different exercise.

Ice Cream

All ice cream is not the same. Chocolate is not the same as vanilla or strawberry.

Bench Press Example

A bench press works the same primary muscle groups (chest, shoulders, and triceps).

However, when you change your grip space on the bar, it virtually make the bench press a different flavor of ice cream.

1) Wide Grip Bench Press is let's say chocolate ice cream.

2) Medium Grip Bench Press is let's say vanilla.

3) Narrow Grip Bench Press is let's say strawberry.

The same thing occurs in changing the angle from a Flat Bench Press to Incline or Decline or Dips.

Muscle Meets Magnet

A great book that examines the difference in changes made in the grip/foot position is Muscle Meets Magnet.

EMG studies show the "hot spots" and determine which muscles are involved in the movement.

Gironda Method

Vince Gironda was one of the best bodybuilding.

Gironda's method of determining what muscle groups worked in a movement was to...

Perform 10 set of an excise to failure then go home.

The next morning when you work up, you KNOW which muscle groups.


Quote:
These reps are high, i dont mind lifting heavier (strength or power), but only if it crosses over into daily activities such as running, which im unsure of and dont understand the benefits of training heavier.


Limit Strength

The foundation of power and speed is Limit Strength.

Speed (Running)

Initially, increasing Limit Strength will increased how fast you run.

Strength Training is also beneficial for endurance athletes.

Ironically, endurance training for strength/power/speed athletes is contra-indicated, it hurt rather than helps.

Power

Power = Strength X Speed

Hypothetical Numerical Example

If we assign 2 to Strength and 2 to Speed, here's what we get...

2 (Strength) X 2 (Speed) = 4 (Power Output)

Increasing Strength

If we increase our Strength to 3 and our Speed remains at 2, here is what we get...

3 (Strength) X 2 (Speed) = 6 (Power Output)

50% Increase

By increasing Strength, we have increased out Power Output 50% (going from 4 to 6).

Reiteration

While speed training can and does increase speed, strength is the foundation on which speed and power are built.

Sprinting

Research has demonstrated that Olympic pulls develop sprint speed.

Olympic Lifter's Faster Than Sprinters

Anecdotal and research has demonstrated that Olympic Lifters, as well as Shot Putters, are faster in the the first 30 meters than sprinters.

The explosive training movements preformed by Olympic Lifters and Shot Putters are one of the primary components of this phenomenon.


Quote:
Is that not bad for the joints/tendons/ligaments if not the muscles themself? My understanding was as a beginner, train higher reps (8-15 at 6-7/10 intensity), then hypertrophy, strength and then power ( power which is used in the power clean suggested in the program)


Strength Training

Using loads of 85% or greater is NOT bad for the joints/tendons/ligaments, providing you...

1) Start out low and allow your body to adapt.

2) Don't push it too hard, too long.

Anything Work...

for a novice/beginner.

Linear Periodization Training

1) Endurance

2) Hypertrophy

3) Strength

4) Power

This the Linear Model for Periodization. As a beginner, anything works.

It is a place to start.

Quote:
The end result seemed to be progressing onto a 2-5 day split program, is that the way to go when you progress, split all movements/ compound lifts onto seperate days? will my progress slow if i continue to do all the primal patterns in the same workout?


Magic Formula

There is no magic formula. The main thing is to grasp the concepts. By doing so, you are able to write your own program.

Packaged Programs

Until you understand the concepts, it best to follow a "Packaged Program" that dictates to you what to do.

Traveling

Think of it as traveling.

Stay on the main roads until you get to know the area.

Once you know the area, you can take some short cuts.

Taking short cuts before you know the area end up getting you lost...NOT good.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:


Quote:
Your phrasing and outlook on training appears to be in the "personal looks" area of a metrosexual.

The problems with that the "appearance" aspect of training is overridden to the detriment training.


I'm really not that interested in the looks area, i just lack an understanding. If i was focused on looks, i would lift for hypertrophy and strength, thats my outlook on it. Which by the sounds of your whole post, is wrong. I started out doing hypertrophy a long time ago. Joined the army, discovered it was mostly useless strength, then have been doing circuit training ever since. I am really interested in performance aspect that will not screw my joints in the long run, i have had enough injuries already.

Quote:
Natural Movement

"Body Weight Movements" and "Weight Movement" are virtually the same.


I had a understanding that bench press and pushup were different, seeing as there is limited scapula movement during benchpress compared to pushup, as well as the core stength involved.

Quote:
Squats, Shoulder Press, etc are "Horizontal Push's" only weighted.


confused me there, i thought they were verticle, i only train shoulder press at the moment to be able to do handstand pushups.

Quote:
15-20 repetition fall into the category of Strength Endurance. While they have a purpose, it doesn't serve much of a purpose.


So i am better off progressing to strength training if my goal is not to run a 5k+ or maximum endurance type event?

Quote:
Functional misused/overused foofoo term.


I kind of limited my view on functional training. My view is to go from stable exercises (bench press/machines) to unstable (standing cable press), isolated exercises all the way up to multi-compound exercises, involving all primal movement patterns and all planes of movement.

I'm starting to realise that just like most people, i'm just another person with an opinion on functional training.

Quote:
The foundation of power and speed is Limit Strength.

Initially, increasing Limit Strength will increased how fast you run.


So any time someone is looking to increase running speed, they also do strength work? you talk about strength x speed = power, but do you train just for power? is that where plyometrics and powerlifting come in?

Quote:
Strength Training is also beneficial for endurance athletes.


I have read strength training is good for endurance athletes by strengthening joints and preventing injuries, as well as for runners, because it stiffens their gait allowing for better running economy. I may have been fed false information, do you mind elaborating on how it helps endurance athletes?

Quote:
Using loads of 85% or greater is NOT bad for the joints/tendons/ligaments, providing you...

1) Start out low and allow your body to adapt.

2) Don't push it too hard, too long.


My original question was in reply to a beginners workout that was linked, it advised sets of 3x5, implying strength training to start with. Which doesnt sound below 85% of 1rm.


Quote:
Linear Periodization Training

1) Endurance

2) Hypertrophy

3) Strength

4) Power

This the Linear Model for Periodization. As a beginner, anything works.

It is a place to start.


I have been training endurance reps for years, whether it be with the army or during circuits i programmed. I only recently decided to seperate strength training from conditioning, as i feel i could get more out of focusing on them seperately, and focus on technique during the strength side rather then just smashing my body in circuits. From what you have told me, i understand endurance training is bad for people who need power/speed/strength, but strength/power/speed can be useful for endurance athletes?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:57 am 
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Not much to add to Kenny Croxdales post... (only I think he confused horizontal and vertical with the bench press, which doesn`t make the message wrong; (weighted) dips could be your substitution for push-ups, when they are getting too easy for you and you still want to keep training only with bodyweight exercises. Push ups are kind of a bad example, because its the only exercise that can`t be done weighted easily (like Pull ups or Dips) and the effect of the exercise wears off... The bench press is the only variant where you can increase the weight gradually so the negative side (less "core strength" involved) is outweight by far at some point in your training.)

Everybody (no matter what kind of sport) needs a good "basic endurance", but that isn`t trained only be jogging for (several) hours... The training will be more specific and varies a little depending on the sport. And everybody (no matter what kind of sport) needs a solid base in strength.

I also started training doing 3x20 Reps (than 4x and 5x20) and it helped in my everyday life. But switching to training 3x5 with higher weight helped even more (and also doing 5x10 now -> training in different Rep ranges now is beneficial to me).


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:13 am 
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Crow wrote:
Not much to add to Kenny Croxdales post... (only I think he confused horizontal and vertical with the bench press, which doesn`t make the message wrong; (weighted) dips could be your substitution for push-ups, when they are getting too easy for you and you still want to keep training only with bodyweight exercises. Push ups are kind of a bad example, because its the only exercise that can`t be done weighted easily (like Pull ups or Dips) and the effect of the exercise wears off... The bench press is the only variant where you can increase the weight gradually so the negative side (less "core strength" involved) is outweight by far at some point in your training.)

Everybody (no matter what kind of sport) needs a good "basic endurance", but that isn`t trained only be jogging for (several) hours... The training will be more specific and varies a little depending on the sport. And everybody (no matter what kind of sport) needs a solid base in strength.

I also started training doing 3x20 Reps (than 4x and 5x20) and it helped in my everyday life. But switching to training 3x5 with higher weight helped even more (and also doing 5x10 now -> training in different Rep ranges now is beneficial to me).


Thanks for the reply, i'm starting to realise the importance of strength training :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:55 am 
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Quote:
Crow wrote:
Not much to add to Kenny Croxdales post... (only I think he confused horizontal and vertical with the bench press


Yea, I don't know what I was thinking.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:02 am 
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But, Kenny--WE know what you are thinking. Isn't that a little scary?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:16 am 
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sav--I think the most helpful thing right now is for you to try to clarify your questions. What exactly would you like us to answer?

Reading through the thread, I was starting to get a bit impatient, feeling like, 1) you already have your mind made up about a lot of things, so why do you ask us? and, 2) stop over thinking and pick up something heavy. You're in your 20s for goodness sake--save the foo-foo stuff for when you're 60.

But maybe I'm premature to react that way. So why don't you clarify for us?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:06 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
sav--I think the most helpful thing right now is for you to try to clarify your questions. What exactly would you like us to answer?

Reading through the thread, I was starting to get a bit impatient, feeling like, 1) you already have your mind made up about a lot of things, so why do you ask us? and, 2) stop over thinking and pick up something heavy. You're in your 20s for goodness sake--save the foo-foo stuff for when you're 60.

But maybe I'm premature to react that way. So why don't you clarify for us?


I think i just got caught up a bit too much in the "function training" trend that is around, one that my personal training course encouraged. I couldnt really articulate myself because i was over-thinking, didn't mean to irritate people.

On a side note, i have SI joint problems, have had achilles tendonosis, tarsi sinus syndrome, some nerve root problem in my cervical that im seeing a specialist about, and a bunch of other soft tissue injuries that go along with these. My problem probably does come down to lifting too many reps and not heavy enough.. ill do my best.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:43 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:01 am 
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Haha, thank you for this accurate message.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:08 pm 
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sav wrote:
I'm having bit of trouble figuring out the best way to train for a stronger more functional body.

Do I do a full body workout 3x per week, using squat,lunge,deadlift, upper body push and pull ( in every direction) and a twist, or do i split it up over the week to train more intensely in each movement. My current path of thinking is bilateral movements(monday), unilateral movements(wednesday), multi-compound movements(friday)

I am not focused on building muscle, just growing a strong functional body and keeping it for many years to come ( in my early 20's at the moment)

Would appreciate any advice or a nudge in the right direction to change my approach to training.

thanks!


Answer: Yes.

You can do it however you like or switch it up over time.

I think based on what you're saying I'd go with a full body routine performed every 2-5 days. This will rock your cardio world my friend and harden your body.

Example (All functional bodyweight): Do one set each. Do a lot.

Chin up
Dip
Split leg squat
Pull up
Incline push up
Bulgarian squat
Body weight row
push up
wide leg squat
bodyweight rear delt row
close grip push up
calf raises
side plank
lower back hold on ball
front plank
puke


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