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 Post subject: multi-compound exercises
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:32 am 
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I was curious to see what people think about doing multi-compound exercises, and where they fit into programs. Using the sling systems together,moving in all planes of movement such as a 1 leg deadlift with row. Does this type of training have a place within a weightlifting routine. I generally see these exercises in mini-circuits.

An example would be:

torsonator pull/push x15
Dumbbell push up with rotation (doing a pushup then holding the dumbbell out with a straight arm as you rotate your torso) x15
Lateral bosu plyo jumps x15

3 sets or so, then onto the next mini-circuit/superset

I understand the components of fitness used in the exercise, it has a mix of plyo/muscular endurance and strength with conditioning in there too. Where can you fit this type of training into a routine and progress. I did similar circuits to these that were advertised as 'functional' training, but i found no real way to monitor the progress.

Can someone tell me what the purpose or training goals would be, for someone who uses this or similar exercises.

Thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:02 am 
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They're good as metabolic exercises. As strength, or even muscular endurance or hypertrophy they leave something to be desired since you won't be using appropriate weights to challenge the muscles. A popular metabolic resistance workout is complexes, mainly those developed by Javorek. His site's not very good but the training is: http://www.istvanjavorek.com/page2.html

"Lateral bosu plyo jumps" sounds like an injury waiting to happen.

If you really are interested in plyometrics, Michael Yessis is the expert, or at least, he's the one that introduced the concept to the Western world. There are several exercises on this site: http://www.exrx.net/Lists/PowerExercises.html

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:08 am 
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First off i would like to say that I see absolutely no point ever to use a bosu ball unless you want to get better at standing on a bosu ball (Maybe rehab work). Also there is nothing "Plyo" about bosu balls. They make you weaker and inhibit power production. So it would be more of a anti-explosive exercise.

Those other exercises would suit some balance and core training, and motion/motor control exercises. They are good for improving stability through movements on different joints. I would do these two in the warm-up or as the last exercises of the workout. The strength or endurance component isn't too strong especially on the DB push-up hold, since it's a very difficult movement.

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Last edited by Dub on Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:45 am 
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sav wrote:
Can someone tell me what the purpose or training goals would be, for someone who uses this or similar exercises.

Are you considering using this yourself? If so, this isn't really the way it should work. You determine YOUR goals, then develop an approach that works for you. You don't find an interesting workout and try to fit it's goals!

On the other hand, maybe you just came across this odd routine and are trying to figure out why anyone would possibly invest time and effort in it?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:58 am 
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stuward wrote:

If you really are interested in plyometrics, Michael Yessis is the expert, or at least, he's the one that introduced the concept to the Western world. There are several exercises on this site


thanks!I only have a muscular endurance base at the moment, i will work my way up to plyometrics perhaps.

Dub wrote:
Those other exercises would suit some balance and core training, and motion/motor control exercises. They are good for improving stability through movements on different joints


Could you recommend me to a source to find out more about motion/motor control exercises? By the sounds of it, its exactly what im looking for. I really want to separate these movements from my strength and conditioning sessions to produce better results.

Jungledoc wrote:
Are you considering using this yourself? If so, this isn't really the way it should work. You determine YOUR goals, then develop an approach that works for you. You don't find an interesting workout and try to fit it's goals!

On the other hand, maybe you just came across this odd routine and are trying to figure out why anyone would possibly invest time and effort in it?


I was doing these types of workouts for 3 months, they are what i consider a functional way of training, they cover everything, except of course max strength/max power. I am trying to put together a good routine, but the so many of the recommended workouts for discussion such as, squat,bench,deadlift,row,shoulder press,chins seem lacking. I think the whole motor control aspect of it is what kept me attracted to it.

I'm trying to separate all of the components of fitness related to these types of routines so i can better improve on each one, i'm not trying to be a metro-sexual with an aesthetic look like you deduced from my other post.

Any advice is appreciated, i am just looking to learn, as i just finished my Personal Training course and am looking into and understanding many different types of training to use for clients.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:31 am 
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You are replying to Dub, Stu and me, none of whom said anything about metro sexual or aesthetics. We love Kenny, but we aren't him. We type better than he does.

I'm a little surprised about the personal training thing. It takes me back to "why are you asking us for advice"? You don't seem to have much confidence in your course.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:45 am 
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sav wrote:
I was curious to see what people think about doing multi-compound exercises, and where they fit into programs. Using the sling systems together,moving in all planes of movement such as a 1 leg deadlift with row. Does this type of training have a place within a weightlifting routine. I generally see these exercises in mini-circuits.


The Money Exercises

The exercises the produce REAL results are multi-joint/compound movements.

"A 1 leg deadlift with a row" is a foofoo exercise.

"Show or Go"

You more concerned with "Show" than "Go".

You obsess over stylish, fashionable, trendy movements...you have a metrosexual perspective of movement.

I have a good friend who is much like you.

Intensity

The key to anything, especially making progress in exercise is intensity.

Foofoo exercise are more like frosting on a cake.

Without the cake, there isn't much need for the frosting.

"You can't shoot a cannon from a canoe." Hatfield

Strength is the foundation on which every other strength is built.

Compound movement are the foundation of strength.

Using foofoo movement amount Hatfield's statement above.

Correcting Hatfield's Statement

With that said, Hatfield was not entirely correct.

You can shoot a cannon from a canoe, ONCE. Then the boat sinks.


Quote:
An example would be:

torsonator pull/push x15
Dumbbell push up with rotation (doing a pushup then holding the dumbbell out with a straight arm as you rotate your torso) x15
Lateral bosu plyo jumps x15


First Thing First

Compound movement need to be performed and emphasized first, not this stuff.

Lateral Bosu Plyo Jumps for 15 Reps?

This makes no sense. How did you ever come up with this?

Plyometrics

Plyometrics are a method of increasing the myotatic reflex (stretch reflex).

Perform them on a BOSU ball does nothing from the drive off the ball to the landing to elict the myotatic reflex.

15 Reps

Plyometric are a speed and/or power movement.

Speed and/or power is evoked with repetition movement of 1-5 Repetitions.

"A Camel is a Horse..."

As someone once said, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."

The committee initially wanted to make a better horse...that didn't happen.

What you have done is take bits and pieces of training movements and method and redesigned it until a whole new animal...like the committee.


Quote:
I understand the components of fitness used in the exercise, it has a mix of plyo/muscular endurance and strength with conditioning in there too.


"A little knowledge..."

You have a small "understanding of the components of fitness".

It has virtually NO plyometrics in it and very little Limit Strength.

As the saying goes, "A little knowledge is dangerous."

You aren't capable of writing a good program correctly.

Quote:
Can someone tell me what the purpose or training goals would be, for someone who uses this or similar exercises.


If you really understood the components of exercise, you would NOT ask that question.

Working Backwards

The "Training Goal" is the key to writing a program.

Once the objective is determined, you then select the exercises, rest period between sets, between repetitions, the training percentage, etc.

Taking A Trip

It like taking a trip.

First select the city you are going to and THEN lay out the plan to get you there.

Driving Around Lost

Right now you are driving around lost. You have no idea of where you are going.

Map

You delusion is that you THINIK you "understand the components of fitness".

That amount to THINKING you know how to get to a city you've NEVER been to.

You need a map.

Pre Planned Program

You need to get a "map".

A "map" in your case is a pre written program that has a proven track record.

Once you learn how to get there, ONLY then write your own program "map" on how to get there.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:50 am 
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sav wrote:
Could you recommend me to a source to find out more about motion/motor control exercises? By the sounds of it, its exactly what im looking for. I really want to separate these movements from my strength and conditioning sessions to produce better results.

I can't really. I have no source for these. They are your basic dynamic stability exercises. The only thing differing among them is the location of the external resistance and the location and direction of movement. You need to understand the basic concept of joint stability, and the basic consept of dynamic/static stability for that matter, for which Gray Cook is one of the top resources.

For example holding something overhead while doing a movement (lunges, TGU's, windmills, walking) is great for stability and motion control and neuromuscular training. Or single-leg exercises are another one.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:32 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
You are replying to Dub, Stu and me, none of whom said anything about metro sexual or aesthetics. We love Kenny, but we aren't him. We type better than he does.

I'm a little surprised about the personal training thing. It takes me back to "why are you asking us for advice"? You don't seem to have much confidence in your course.


Sorry, my mistake. My course was good, but some of the things they teached, especially the 'functional movement' week of study we did, didnt tie in well with everything else i had learned. They talked about the sling systems, and using multi-compound movements to target these systems. Which basically just means things like i suggested using a rotation with a upper body pull or push and a lower body movement all in the same exercise.
Quote:

kenny croxdale wrote:
You obsess over stylish, fashionable, trendy movements...you have a metrosexual perspective of movement


No, i only did it because of the whole idea of using multi-compound movements to increase cardio endurance felt much better then a 3 day split with cardio in between. I am here to understand why one of my teachers at the personal training course advocated movements like the torsonator push/pull and single leg dead lift with row.

Quote:
lateral bosu plyo jump. This makes no sense. How did you ever come up with this?


I didnt. Coordinator at the personal training course made it up. Maybe i didnt explain it properly, its similar to box lateral shuffle but with a bosu ball, and a focus on jumping high.

Quote:
Compound movement need to be performed and emphasized first, not this stuff.


They are compound and multi-compound movements, but i think i understand what you are saying.

Quote:
"A little knowledge..."

You have a small "understanding of the components of fitness".

It has virtually NO plyometrics in it and very little Limit Strength.

As the saying goes, "A little knowledge is dangerous."

You aren't capable of writing a good program correctly.


Like i said, i did not develop the program. I am posting it here for a reason, and that reason is because an experienced personal trainer who is the coordinator at the personal training course came up with it, and i don't understand the point of it, it seems all over the place.

As for the rest of the criticism, yes i know how to tailor a program to someones needs and goals. I am just confused by this routine.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:24 am 
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Quote:
Can someone tell me what the purpose or training goals would be, for someone who uses this or similar exercises.


I would say the purpose is wasting time.

Quote:
I am posting it here for a reason, and that reason is because an experienced personal trainer who is the coordinator at the personal training course came up with it, and i don't understand the point of it, it seems all over the place.


You were learning from a "clipboard cowboy" as we sometimes call them. I agree it's all over the place, and I don't understand the point either. It's typical of most trainers. Poorly designed routines of "foo-foo" (thanks, Kenny) exercises.

Quote:
I am just confused by this routine.


As are we all.

Most personal trainers seem to come up with routines that are nothing but exercises like this one:



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:04 am 
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Thank you all for clarifying, i was very confused.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:01 am 
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Quote:
lateral bosu plyo jump. This makes no sense. How did you ever come up with this?


I didnt. Coordinator at the personal training course made it up. Maybe i didnt explain it properly, its similar to box lateral shuffle but with a bosu ball, and a focus on jumping high.[/quote]

Quote:
Compound movement need to be performed and emphasized first, not this stuff.


Clueless Coordinator

This person has no idea what they are prescribing.

BOSU Ball

The use of a BOSU Ball in performing jumps is insane.

Common sense and research has demonstrated the Limit Strength, Power and Speed are evoked and developed on HARD surfaces...a box, concrete, asphalt, etc.

Running In Sand

Using a BOSU Ball, any stability device, is equivalent to running in sand.

Initial Limit Strength, Power and Speed are lost when the surface shifts under your feet.

Who Is the FASTEST Sprinter?

a) The Sprinter who runs on concrete.

b) The Sprinter who runs in sand...or mud.


Quote:
Like i said, i did not develop the program. I am posting it here for a reason, and that reason is because an experienced personal trainer who is the coordinator at the personal training course came up with it, and i don't understand the point of it, it seems all over the place.


You Don't Know, What You Don't Know

Okay, I get it. You don't know enough to know if the personal trainer is right or wrong.

Experience Trainer

Experienced at WHAT? It definitely NOT how to train an individual.

Your right, "it is all over the places" and is a program that is incorrectly written.

The group that post on this board is one of the smarter groups, they can provide with good information.

Also, do you own research...Read, Study...\

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:24 am 
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sav, what is the name of the course? How much did you pay for the it?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:56 am 
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Thanks again. It was a cert III and IV in fitness, done in australia at Australian fitness academy,Melbourne. Cost roughly $300 per course, total length of combined courses was 25 weeks i think, 3 days a week + work experience. The theory side was good, which conflicted with this whole "foo-foo" training that they showed us.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:43 am 
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There's a photo on their home page of a guy doing Bosu pushups.

http://courses.ausfitnessacademy.com.au/fitness-instructor-work/

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