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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:26 am 
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Now that I've been at this over 3 years I'm accumulating enough knowledge of my own needs to try to put together a program that directly hits what I'm after.

Here is what I'm pretty confident about:

1) Improving leg drive is a great way for me to improve DL
2) I have never done speed work on DL, and I have to train out my very counter-productive habit of being tentative at the beginning of max efforts
3) Want to go heavy on back work to improve bench - trading off some pressing volume here
4) Must not neglect abs and face pulls
5) The 5/3/1 intensity progression works well for me on squats - but I'll backburner bench and press for a cycle or 2
6) Want to experiment with 3/week, down from 4/week and see if "less is more" will help overall

Throwing all of that into the mix I came up with a program that looks about like this:

Week    Day    Lower      Upper      
==== ===== ========== ==========
1 Tue Squat 5+
1 Thur Bench 5+
1 Sat DL Speed
---- ----- ---------- ----------
2 Tue Press 5+
2 Thur Squat 3+
2 Sat Bench 3+
---- ----- ---------- ----------
3 Tue Squat 1+
3 Thur Press 3+
3 Sat DL Speed
---- ----- ---------- ----------
4 Tue MAX (No accessories)
4 Thur MAX (No accessories)
4 Sat *** Off ***


A few other points:
1) Major lower body accessories are Romanian deadlifts and sled leg press. Volume emphasis, not intensity.
2) I'm thinking to do weighted pullups on lower days,
3) Upper days will be volume rowing, face pulls, and abs

Any and all comments very welcome. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:58 am 
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KenDowns wrote:
Improving leg drive is a great way for me to improve DL


Sumo Deadlift

Yes.

Research (Dr. Tom McLauglin) demonstrated the firing sequence is Legs-Back.

Thus, increasing leg strength definitely will improve leg drive for a Sumo Deadlift.

Conventional Deadlift

Research (McLaughlin) has shown the firing sequence is Back-Legs-Back.

That means breaking the weight off the floor revolves around initialing the drive with the lower back.

Stiff Leg Deadlifts, Good Mornings etc are effective for this.

Certainly, increasing leg strength will have a synergistic effect. However, focusing on increasing leg strength for a Conventional Deadlifter isn't going to cut it.

Hip Drive

With the Sumo and Conventional Deadlift, horizontal hip drive is vital to locking the weight out.

To stand up with the weight, requires you horizontally drive the hips forward.

Driving the hips forward allows you to stand erect.

Everything You Need to Know About the Hip Thrust
http://bretcontreras.com/everything-you ... ip-thrust/

Are All Hip Extension Exercises Created Equal?
http://bretcontreras.com/are-all-hip-ex ... ted-equal/

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:28 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
KenDowns wrote:
Improving leg drive is a great way for me to improve DL


Conventional Deadlift

Research (McLaughlin) has shown the firing sequence is Back-Legs-Back.

That means breaking the weight off the floor revolves around initialing the drive with the lower back.

Stiff Leg Deadlifts, Good Mornings etc are effective for this.

Certainly, increasing leg strength will have a synergistic effect. However, focusing on increasing leg strength for a Conventional Deadlifter isn't going to cut it.



I recall a "passionate discussion" here some time ago regarding lower back involvement in breaking the weight off the floor.

I cannot speak to the science but I know for a fact I break the weight of the floor with my lower back -- it's almost like getting the bar off the floor is the last part of the setup.

You did not say so outright, but it seems the conclusion is to add some low back work on the 5 lower body days, and I would think it would go after the heavy accessory like Romanians or leg press.

The Glute Guy's article is thorough as always. My conclusion there is that if I have time for only one then the 45 deg back extension would be the place to start -- gives the most uniform torque. But wait, if the good morning provides maximum torque at the bottom, isn't that the closest to the the DL start position, so maybe that will have the most direct carryover? Well, on the third hand, if I've never done lower back work specifically than ANY improvement will provide some carryover and I can refine later.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:35 am 
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KenDowns wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
KenDowns wrote:
Improving leg drive is a great way for me to improve DL


Conventional Deadlift

Research (McLaughlin) has shown the firing sequence is Back-Legs-Back.

That means breaking the weight off the floor revolves around initialing the drive with the lower back.

Stiff Leg Deadlifts, Good Mornings etc are effective for this.

Certainly, increasing leg strength will have a synergistic effect. However, focusing on increasing leg strength for a Conventional Deadlifter isn't going to cut it.



I recall a "passionate discussion" here some time ago regarding lower back involvement in breaking the weight off the floor.




"Monkey See Monkey Do"

Yea, the majority of lifters "parrot" the myth of pushing you feet through the floor on a Deadlift.


Quote:
You did not say so outright, but it seems the conclusion is to add some low back work on the 5 lower body days, and I would think it would go after the heavy accessory like Romanians or leg press.


Romanian Deadlift

I am not much of a fan. There are more effective movement.

Leg Press

It has it place, depending on what the purpose is.


Quote:
The Glute Guy's article is thorough as always. My conclusion there is that if I have time for only one then the 45 deg back extension would be the place to start -- gives the most uniform torque.


Metabolic Stress

Yes, provide more Time Under Tension for the muscle involve creating greater Metabolic Stress.

Thus, the 45 Degree Hip/Back Extension is a bit more effective for hypertrophy.

Mid Range Deadlift

Individuals in the mid range Deadlift will find a 45 Degree Hip/Back Raise an effective method for in strength in this area.

Back Raise or Hip Extension

Where you place you hips on the pad determines to a large extent if you are working your back or your hamstrings and glutes.

How you perform it is another factor.

Back Extension-Hip Extension Demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh45myksaEs

Quote:
But wait, if the good morning provides maximum torque at the bottom, isn't that the closest to the the DL start position, so maybe that will have the most direct carryover?


Good Morning

Yes, the Good Morning does replicate the Deadlift in breaking the weight off the floor.

Thus, for an individual who need to strengthen the drive off the floor, Good Morning are very effective.

Band Good Mornings

By attaching bands to the bar in performing a Good Morning, you obtain loading in the mid range as well as in the bottom position.

Quote:
Well, on the third hand, if I've never done lower back work specifically than ANY improvement will provide some carryover and I can refine later.


Yes, anything works if you haven't done anything.

Here something on...

8 Thoracic Extension Exercises
http://bretcontreras.com/8-thoracic-ext ... exercises/

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:31 am 
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Kenny, thanks for the detail, I've been meaning to reply for a couple of days.

Lower Back Extensions
I watched Bret's video on back extension about 3 times and tried it on Tuesday.

* Lowered pads so I could get some bend in the hips
* Squeezed glutes hard coming up
* Was careful to avoid hyper-extension

Found it very confusing because I ended up with a serious burn in my calves. I must have been involuntarily pushing up onto my toes. Will practice not doing that.

For me this is a learning cycle, my focus is to learn this move

Thoracic Extensions
No bands or kettlebells or safety bar in gym, so I tried seated good mornings with a barbell and ended up just lowering the bar more and more down my back to try to avoid the bar rolling at the bottom. Not sure I got anything out of this, must continue to learn it.

Will try the standing barbell upper back good morning next time and see how I fare with that.

For me this is a learning cycle, my focus is to learn this move

Romanian Deadlifts
Actually did not do these, and will not do them this cycle.

There is a point made in this article: http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2010/05/as ... ifter.html that if an assistance does not improve a main lift, stop doing it. I've done Romanians for some time and can't say they've done anything. I can easily do without for a cycle and try something else.

Two Experiments
Apart from the two learning moves around back extension, I have two more that I am simply going to try to see if they give me an improvement.

LEG PRESS: never had access before. Going to give it a cycle. So far I can say it is very good for inducing days worth of DOMS lol. Whether it does anything else for me remains to be seen.

SPEED DEADS: many people say you must do this and I never have. So same deal, go serious with it for a cycle and then see if I can see any improvement. Only doing speed for DL, and doing it twice in the 4 week cycle (up from zero).


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