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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:23 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
SmokeWillow wrote:
PEDs won't increase rate of force delivery. Like I said, they will get you to your ceiling faster but they will not raise the roof.


Ignorance

As the saying goes, 'It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt'. Mark Twain

Now go to your room and do you home work. :)

PED

Anabolic steroids are just that, "Anabolic". They increase muscle mass and strength.

Now let's see how that works.

Power
"Plyometric Bench Press Training"
http://uspla.org/home/training-articles

First let’s define what power is. Power is equal to force multiplied by distance divided by time.

Power = Force x Distance/Time

Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed.

Therefore,

Strength x Speed = POWER.

"Since strength and speed are components of power, increasing one while neglecting the other limits total power development.

Unfortunately, many players focus on strength because they are familiar with this traditional and well-established mode of training. Because strength and speed have a multiplicative impact on power, athletes can make greater gains if they develop both components. For example, if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain in speed, the power rating would be:
3 x 3 = 9" (Brittenham, 1997)

Anabolics Blow A Hole Through The Roof!!!

They accelerate muscle mass and strength gains.

They DRAMATICALLY increase your strength levels when you are on them.

As the above illustration demonstrates and increase in strength when on them, translates to an increase in power.

"...They don't raise the roof."

If that were really true, then there would be no reason to band them for athletes who take them during their sports season.

As per statement implied, all steroids do is get you there faster and then EVERYONE catches up. After that everyone on the same footing...natural athletes and those taking them.

Your Education

You clearly have no book smart knowledge of what anabolic steroids are, how they work, etc. Nor you do have any real life experience with them.

Yet, you are an expert in an area you are clueless about.

How does that work?

Kenny Croxdale


Kenny Croxdale, strength only gets you faster to a certain point. You clearly should have learned that in school. They will not turn an average bro into a world class sprinter. They increase recovery but they will not increase speed potential. Not everyone needs powerlifter strength because you'll reach your rate of force delivery before you hit your genetic strength ceiling.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:07 am 
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Perhaps both of you should define about which kind of sport you want to dicuss, before you go on ;)

There clearly is a difference in athletes training for Javelin or Shot Put. Due to the lower weight of the javelin weight training (limit strength) doesn`t transfer to the throw as much as with Shot Put.

Also with the vertical jump needed for Basketball or Volleyball... when the time needed to develop the maximum strength gets too long, it can`t be used for the movement in the sport and the focus of strength training has to shift.

Nevertheless... limit strength is the base and without it, all other variations (speed-strength ...) will suffer. Now it depends on what you want to discuss exactly and about what level of strength you are talking about exactly ;)

(disclaimer: as you know... its not my first language... if something sounds strange to you or is using the incorrect terms... it`s probably a problem of translation or me having no clue ;) )


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 Post subject: Go do your home work.
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:19 am 
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SmokeWillow wrote:

Kenny Croxdale, strength only gets you faster to a certain point. You clearly should have learned that in school. They will not turn an average bro into a world class sprinter. They increase recovery but they will not increase speed potential. Not everyone needs powerlifter strength because you'll reach your rate of force delivery before you hit your genetic strength ceiling.


Congratulations

So, you have done some of your home works. Good for you, buddy.

Olympic Lifting Strength

What you need is "Olympic Lifting" strength.

Poster Children

Olympic Lifters have produced some of the greatest power outputs on record, 52.6 watts per kilo of body weight.

The foundation on which they, other athletes, have build their power and speed is via increasing their Limit Strength.

Math

I tired to break down that math for you with Brittenham's analogy but evidently 2 X 2 was a bit much for you, bro.

Dr. Mike Stone

Stone was one of the USA Olympic Training Centers strength coaches, years ago. Stone is one of the leading experts in the field.

In interview with Stone regarding USA Olympic Lifter (the poster children for power), Stone said they HAVE TO GET STRONGER!

Strength Training For Sprinters

As per you, increasing strength for a sprint isn't going to help them. Really?

Ben Johnson

Part of Johnson's speed came from his strength training and his "supplementation."

If his "supplementation" didn't really matter (as per you), then why was he busted for taking something that didn't do anything more him that drinking a glass of milk?

Usain Bolt

Bolt is taking something, as are the rest of the sprinters.

Also, Bolt has enormous posterior chain strength (Glutes and Hamstrings).

Few Olympic Lifters or Powerlifter possess the glute strength of Bolt.

Steroids In Season

This takes us back to you eluding to that fact that steroid help you get there faster.

However, steroids do NOTHING for you past that point or in season.

With that thought in mind, evidently you have no problems in legalizing them.

Knowledge

This take us back to you spewing crap because you have no real knowledge about steroids on any level.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:21 pm 
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"Barry Bonds
The odds of someone eclipsing Bond's home run record without PEDs is remote.
Bonds had good "Baseball" genetics.

Power
Making a comparison between bonds and a bodybuilder doesn't make any sense.
Hitting home runs is all about power.

Force = Mass X Acceleration

A player like Bonds stepping into the pitch at 228 lbs with a lot of speed is going to do better than a 185 lb batter with the same bat speed.

Bodybuilding
It is a beauty contest.
Few bodybuilders come close to the strength of a powerlifter.
Few bodybuilders can produce much power.
The emphasis of their training is on size, little time is devoted toward Limit Strength Training.
Virtually NO training time is devoted to power." - Kenny Croxdale

I think you misunderstood my point. The article claimed that it's highly unlikely for anyone to exceed an FFMI of 26 without PEDs. I disagreed, using bodybuilding as an example, since bodybuilders are the athletes most likely to achieve a high FFMI. However, I never claimed that bodybuilders as a group are especially athletic.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 3:27 pm 
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In other words, I think a legitimately natural bodybuilder with good genetics could match Bonds' build without PEDs. That doesn't mean they could hit a baseball, much less match Bonds' on-field performance.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Steve Reeves had a FFMI of 25.7. It's probably more accurate than Sandow's. Layne Norton has an FFMI of 26.8. Some debate whether he is drug free. If you know someone with a higher FFMI than Steve Reeves, then it seems like the burden of proof should be on the person making the claim. It's more believable to me that at least half the guys in the Crossfit top 10 are juicing.

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Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:30 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
SmokeWillow wrote:

Kenny Croxdale, strength only gets you faster to a certain point. You clearly should have learned that in school. They will not turn an average bro into a world class sprinter. They increase recovery but they will not increase speed potential. Not everyone needs powerlifter strength because you'll reach your rate of force delivery before you hit your genetic strength ceiling.


Congratulations

So, you have done some of your home works. Good for you, buddy.

Olympic Lifting Strength

What you need is "Olympic Lifting" strength.

Poster Children

Olympic Lifters have produced some of the greatest power outputs on record, 52.6 watts per kilo of body weight.

The foundation on which they, other athletes, have build their power and speed is via increasing their Limit Strength.

Math

I tired to break down that math for you with Brittenham's analogy but evidently 2 X 2 was a bit much for you, bro.

Dr. Mike Stone

Stone was one of the USA Olympic Training Centers strength coaches, years ago. Stone is one of the leading experts in the field.

In interview with Stone regarding USA Olympic Lifter (the poster children for power), Stone said they HAVE TO GET STRONGER!

Strength Training For Sprinters

As per you, increasing strength for a sprint isn't going to help them. Really?

Ben Johnson

Part of Johnson's speed came from his strength training and his "supplementation."

If his "supplementation" didn't really matter (as per you), then why was he busted for taking something that didn't do anything more him that drinking a glass of milk?

Usain Bolt

Bolt is taking something, as are the rest of the sprinters.

Also, Bolt has enormous posterior chain strength (Glutes and Hamstrings).

Few Olympic Lifters or Powerlifter possess the glute strength of Bolt.

Steroids In Season

This takes us back to you eluding to that fact that steroid help you get there faster.

However, steroids do NOTHING for you past that point or in season.

With that thought in mind, evidently you have no problems in legalizing them.

Knowledge

This take us back to you spewing crap because you have no real knowledge about steroids on any level.

Kenny Croxdale


Kenny, this is clearly too much for you to handle without getting butt hurt.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:59 pm 
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"Steve Reeves had a FFMI of 25.7. It's probably more accurate than Sandow's. Layne Norton has an FFMI of 26.8. Some debate whether he is drug free. If you know someone with a higher FFMI than Steve Reeves, then it seems like the burden of proof should be on the person making the claim. It's more believable to me that at least half the guys in the Crossfit top 10 are juicing." - stuward

I'm not disputing the prevalence of PED use in the Crossfit Games, only the exaggerated FFMI claims. ... Reeves was impressive, but I don't think he ever reached his full natural potential. For example, his legs and mid-back never reached the level of his lats and delts. Also, Reeves was over 6-feet tall. I think it's easier for a shorter man with shorter limbs to achieve a high FFMI.

If I remember correctly, my upper arm and thigh measurements are roughly the same as Reeves', although I'm only 5'6" tall and he was 6'2" (I think). Meanwhile, I know for a fact that I've never used PEDs.


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:18 am 
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The FFMI calculators typically provide an "adjusted" value to compensate for different heights. Remember a couple of years ago when we had Casey Butt talking about this on this forum? We discussed if quite a bit back then and I doubt anything has changed.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:16 am 
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SmokeWillow wrote:

Kenny, this is clearly too much for you to handle without getting butt hurt.


Butt Hurt?

LOL. Where did you get that? In "da "hood", bro?

Avoidance

I have quizzed you twice on anabolics and you knowledge of them.

You avoidance means you don't have enough knowledge to address that issue.

Knowledge

You have some knowledge of strength but not enough to complete comprehend it's application.

"No one every dumber by reading a book". Cosgrove

You need to read and live more.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:31 am 
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Matt Z wrote:

I think you misunderstood my point. The article claimed that it's highly unlikely for anyone to exceed an FFMI of 26 without PEDs. I disagreed, using bodybuilding as an example, since bodybuilders are the athletes most likely to achieve a high FFMI. However, I never claimed that bodybuilders as a group are especially athletic.


Matt,

Good enough. I see your point.

Bodybuilders

I don't consider this group athletes. I admire their training intensity and what they achieve.

However, it is really a "Beauty Contest". No athletic ability is required.

The "model" in a swim suit.

Contest Day

On contest day, bodybuilders are in a physically depleted state. No strength, power, speed, and overall in poor health. Posing on stage wear them out.

Their testosterone levels have dropped through the floor, as per one research case study. That case study went on to state that it took three months to ALMOST get their testosterone level back to normal.

On contest day, athletes are at or near their physical peak.

Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:32 am 
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The same author wrote a similar article that got published on T-nation today:
http://www.t-nation.com/powerful-words/ ... d-steroids

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:41 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
SmokeWillow wrote:

Kenny, this is clearly too much for you to handle without getting butt hurt.


Butt Hurt?

LOL. Where did you get that? In "da "hood", bro?

Avoidance

I have quizzed you twice on anabolics and you knowledge of them.

You avoidance means you don't have enough knowledge to address that issue.

Knowledge

You have some knowledge of strength but not enough to complete comprehend it's application.

"No one every dumber by reading a book". Cosgrove

You need to read and live more.

Kenny Croxdale


I'm offended by that. I grew up inner city saint louis and you shouldn't joke about "the hood." Just be glad you never had to experience that.


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:26 pm 
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SmokeWillow wrote:
I'm offended by that. I grew up inner city saint louis and you shouldn't joke about "the hood." Just be glad you never had to experience that.


"This is clearly too much for you to handle without getting butt hurt."

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:02 pm 
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Lol, meat head. I'm ignoring you


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