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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:25 am 
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Powerlifting Ninja
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Note that you don't have to learn the relatively technical Olympic lifts to benefit! You can do explosive work like:

- box jumps
- dumbbell swings
- one-arm versions of the snatch and clean
- push press
- thrusters
- sprinting


While the exercise you have listed will to some extent. Now the BUTT...none of the movemenst listed above produce anywhere near the same power output as Olympic movements.

Quote:
...all of which will have you moving fast and hard. I don't do Olympic Lifts (no hands-on instruction, no bumper plates, no safe place to ditch weight, no Olympic bars)


All of these are just excuses...a mean of justifying why you don't want to do them.

Let break them down. "...no hand-on instruction"...one of the best training video on how to learn and perform Olympic movement Harvey Newton's "Explosive Lifting For Sprots listed on this web site. http://exrx.net/Store/HK/ExplosiveLiftingForSports.html

"...no bumper plates..." Few need bumper plates for such movements as power clean, hi pulls, and power snatches. The weight can be controlled. I never have had any bumper plates or trained with any. I've trained the the Olmpic movements, listed above, since I was a kid.

"...no safe place to ditch weight..." As I stated, that is not a problem with the movements that I've listed above.

The primary need for bumper places and a platform with neatherthal lifter is that dropping the weight make them feel macho.

"...no bar..." Then make an investment in you future by purchasing one.

I am constantly amazed at what people "can't do," when it's really what they chose not to do.

Quote:
but I do the exercises list above. You can get lots of explosive power that way too. I know I have - I've watched my strength and power go up because of doing them.


Well, doing something is better than doing nothing. So, the exercise you perform are useful. As you said, "The most important thing, though, is to just do it."

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Kenny, I train in a tiny corner of an MMA gym on someone else's equipment. I know I need hands-on training because I've tried to learn exercises and techniques from video and it's just not the same. I don't "need" to drop the weights, but if I drop them due to a missed lift I'm slamming someone else's equipment down in a small space (probably hitting racks, the ring ropes, the kerosene heater, etc. on the way down) and ending up hitting a concrete floor. Olympic bars are so rare here I've never seen one for sale, found a catalog or Japanese website selling them or a gym that has them.

I've looked at doing them and found that other explosive work is effective and more practical for the gear I have, the knowledge I've been able to accumulate, and the situation I'm in. I'd do them if I could - and if I move back to NJ, I'm planning to get instruction on these lifts and use the Olympic bar I've got at home to do more of them. Yeah, the lifts you listed in your post don't need as much Olympic gear. Guess what? I do Power Cleans, I do High Pulls. I also do Power Snatches with dumbbells. But I don't do C&Js, full squat cleans, or snatches. Why not? See my "excuses."

Sorry for the rant, but I really hate it when people tell me the valid reasons I have for not doing something are "excuses." Sometimes people have made valid decisions based on their situation and aren't trying to avoid something they don't want to do.

Peter


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Another thing about olympic lifts, not all professional trainers would agree it is worth the time to bother incorporating them into training. You seem to be saying that everyone agrees and I would say from looking around and reading a lot of viewpoints that professionals are probably split down the middle on how useful they are compared to doing other explosive work.

In addition, there is a difference between power and speed. Just because someone is powerful, doesn't make them fast. Power is the combination of two things so you need not have power to be good at one of the two inputs: force or velocity. A train is powerful because it has a huge weight moving at a moderate velocity but it isn't nearly as fast as say, a very light car, just as a mountain is stronger than a train because it weighs more.

You probably witness many olympic lifters who are powerful and fast and also strong. That could be because the people who are best at the sport are outstanding specimens as well as intelligent athletes (or have good coaches who think for them) who know to develop all the strength qualities.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:44 pm 
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can anyone answer my question in the last post in the first page before the page went to 2? I just did the workout I listed in that last reply and it took about less than an hour to finish it all and I like how I did it. I have confidence in this workout.

One thing I really want to know is the weight you lift...does upper body horizontal push and pull have to be the same weight to avoid muscle inbalance? and does upper body vertical pull and push have to be same weight? quad dominant and hip dominant? I want to make sure I don't get any muscle inbalances again due to one exercise being heavier or lighter than the other.

For the machine seated row (upper body horizontal pull), I use 65 pounds....For bench press (upper body horizontal push), what weight should I be using of its dumbbells or if its barbells?

and can anyone check my stretching thread please? I have so many stretches and I don't know how to create a stretching routine that will get all the muscles needed. so many stretches use the same muscles, but one is always the target.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:58 pm 
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If the workout is working for you, that's really all the feedback you need for now. Record your progress and see how you make out. It's your workout, not ours.

As for ratios of pushing to pulling, I don't know. The only discussion of that I've seen with solid numbers is Charles Poliquin's article on muscle balance.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;js ... =-1#bottom

But I don't know. I benched a PR last night for 2 reps - 70kg. Woo. But I can one-arm row 40kg and I can chinup my 82kg frame with 25kg hanging from it for 3 reps. So am I in balance? I don't really know. That article makes me seem out of balance. My two-rep bench press is lower than my 3-rep supinated dead-hang weighted chinup, which is the opposite of what it should be.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:12 pm 
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caangelxox wrote:
can anyone answer my question in the last post in the first page before the page went to 2? I just did the workout I listed in that last reply and it took about less than an hour to finish it all and I like how I did it. I have confidence in this workout.

One thing I really want to know is the weight you lift...does upper body horizontal push and pull have to be the same weight to avoid muscle inbalance? and does upper body vertical pull and push have to be same weight? quad dominant and hip dominant? I want to make sure I don't get any muscle inbalances again due to one exercise being heavier or lighter than the other.

For the machine seated row (upper body horizontal pull), I use 65 pounds....For bench press (upper body horizontal push), what weight should I be using of its dumbbells or if its barbells?

and can anyone check my stretching thread please? I have so many stretches and I don't know how to create a stretching routine that will get all the muscles needed. so many stretches use the same muscles, but one is always the target.


Your push and pull weights should be similar but they don't have to be exact. My row is higher than my bench but I find dips easier than chin ups. The situation that is often experienced is guys that only bench and do no rows. Those are the ones that will have problems. It looks like you have a good program. Keep putting the weights up as often as you can with good form. I can't speak on stretching. I'm naturally flexible and it doesn't take me long to stretch out any tightness so it's not something I've paid much attention too.

As for your question on page 1, I like the idea of alternating the 2 workouts each time.

Stu


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:56 pm 
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stuward wrote:
caangelxox wrote:
can anyone answer my question in the last post in the first page before the page went to 2? I just did the workout I listed in that last reply and it took about less than an hour to finish it all and I like how I did it. I have confidence in this workout.

One thing I really want to know is the weight you lift...does upper body horizontal push and pull have to be the same weight to avoid muscle inbalance? and does upper body vertical pull and push have to be same weight? quad dominant and hip dominant? I want to make sure I don't get any muscle inbalances again due to one exercise being heavier or lighter than the other.

For the machine seated row (upper body horizontal pull), I use 65 pounds....For bench press (upper body horizontal push), what weight should I be using of its dumbbells or if its barbells?

and can anyone check my stretching thread please? I have so many stretches and I don't know how to create a stretching routine that will get all the muscles needed. so many stretches use the same muscles, but one is always the target.


Your push and pull weights should be similar but they don't have to be exact. My row is higher than my bench but I find dips easier than chin ups. The situation that is often experienced is guys that only bench and do no rows. Those are the ones that will have problems. It looks like you have a good program. Keep putting the weights up as often as you can with good form. I can't speak on stretching. I'm naturally flexible and it doesn't take me long to stretch out any tightness so it's not something I've paid much attention too.

As for your question on page 1, I like the idea of alternating the 2 workouts each time.

Stu


oh okay. Yeah I like the idea of alternating the 2 workouts each time as well. Is that what you do? On Wednesday I will do Workout B.

By the way, I am completly opposite when it comes to Dips and Chin Ups. I can Pull up my bodyweight (6 max today), but not Dips on a pull up/dip machine. I could do bench dips, but it is different because you are not hanging.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:59 pm 
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caangelxox wrote:
stuward wrote:
caangelxox wrote:
can anyone answer my question in the last post in the first page before the page went to 2? I just did the workout I listed in that last reply and it took about less than an hour to finish it all and I like how I did it. I have confidence in this workout.

One thing I really want to know is the weight you lift...does upper body horizontal push and pull have to be the same weight to avoid muscle inbalance? and does upper body vertical pull and push have to be same weight? quad dominant and hip dominant? I want to make sure I don't get any muscle inbalances again due to one exercise being heavier or lighter than the other.

For the machine seated row (upper body horizontal pull), I use 65 pounds....For bench press (upper body horizontal push), what weight should I be using of its dumbbells or if its barbells?

and can anyone check my stretching thread please? I have so many stretches and I don't know how to create a stretching routine that will get all the muscles needed. so many stretches use the same muscles, but one is always the target.


Your push and pull weights should be similar but they don't have to be exact. My row is higher than my bench but I find dips easier than chin ups. The situation that is often experienced is guys that only bench and do no rows. Those are the ones that will have problems. It looks like you have a good program. Keep putting the weights up as often as you can with good form. I can't speak on stretching. I'm naturally flexible and it doesn't take me long to stretch out any tightness so it's not something I've paid much attention too.

As for your question on page 1, I like the idea of alternating the 2 workouts each time.

Stu


quote]

oh okay. Yeah I like the idea of alternating the 2 workouts each time as well. Is that what you do? On Wednesday I will do Workout B. Will I get much gain alternating the workout each time or just doing the movement matters (with the same weight used on the other exercise for that movement in workout A) no matter what exercise it is?

By the way, I am completly opposite when it comes to Dips and Chin Ups. I can Pull up my bodyweight (6 max today), but not Dips on a pull up/dip machine. I could do bench dips, but it is different because you are not hanging.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:33 am 
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Alternating does seem like a good way to utilize different exercises while ensure you do everything regularly.

The workout I outlined earlier for my friend does that - A1, B1, A2, B2. He's just started it. I think it's a workable frame. It's just four workouts built on a 14-day schedule instead of a 7-day schedule. He's also filling in other days with other training, so 2 days a week is all he needs but it was too much to fit in so many exercises...especially all done 3x5.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:43 am 
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caangelxox wrote:
oh okay. Yeah I like the idea of alternating the 2 workouts each time as well. Is that what you do? On Wednesday I will do Workout B.


I start each workout with a bodyweight circuit warmup, then normally I do a different whole body workout 3 days a week, usually an olympic lift followed by a quad dominant, then a hip dominant and then upper body push and pull. I select the exercises so the load alternates heavy, light, medium for each movement. I do a different exercise each workout. I travel a lot so I've missed a couple of workouts lately so this week I'm doing 4 days upper/lower/upper/lower, again, different exercises each day.

caangelxox wrote:
Will I get much gain alternating the workout each time or just doing the movement matters (with the same weight used on the other exercise for that movement in workout A) no matter what exercise it is?


Alternating the exercises will allow more specific rest and recovery. The similar but different exercise in the alternate workout will allow some recovery to take place by providing active recovery to the muscle just worked but still provide a training stimulus. You should try to make progression from workout to workout either in load or reps. A good way to do that is pick a rep range that you want to work in, 8-12 is popular, pick a weight were 8 is hard and do as many as you can before your form breaks down. Once you hit 12, raise the weight the next time you do that exercise.

Stu


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:34 am 
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Okay thank you! I am sore from my workout yesterday. My hamstrings are too (from the RDL). Quads are also sore. I don't know why my under arms (right side the most) is sore though. Maybe from the bench press? Isn't my chest suppose to be sore? I don't really feel my chest when I do the bench press. I did it with dumbbells. maybe the weight I was using was too light and not heavy enough?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:39 am 
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Soreness isn't a great sign of exercise effectiveness. Lack of soreness isn't a good sign of what muscles you missed. In other words, sore muscles did work, but that doesn't mean that non-sore muscles didn't work. If you do deadlifts and your glutes are sore but your lower back isn't, that doesn't mean the lower back didn't work. It's also not a great sign of effectiveness in terms of growth, either - you can make a muscle sore without making it stronger...1000 crunches will make your abs sore, but 3x5 of weighted crunches will make them stronger and probably suffer less DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) in the process.

If your body under your arms is sore, just remember you did - if I'm reading this right - rows, bench pressing, pullups, high-low cable chops, and a bunch of upper-body weighted lower body work. Your entire upper body did some work.

I'll pass on the chest question, I've got a weak chest.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:15 am 
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oh I heard that lacid acid is a good thing and that means the muscles are adapting, working, and getting stronger. I even asked my biology teacher and other PE teachers and they say the same thing. It's not a bad thing. It usually happens when a muscle is not used to a certain type of movement or have not been used in a while or using a certain amount of weight.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:35 am 
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The pain could be an indication you are hitting a muscle you haven't hit before or you are hitting it in a new way or a higher intensity level.

Thr RDLs can affect the lats and cause the pain you are experiencing because you are probably trying to hold the bar into your body. You may be doing this subconciously as it lessens the stress on your lower back. You need to push out on your rear so the bar stays close and your arms hang straight. Dr. Squat calls them Keystone deadlifts because the position you get in reminds him of the Keystone Kops in the old movies.

Training for lactic acid is a valid technique for endurance atheletes, it has limited use in strength trainig.

DOMS is generally a sign of lack of conditioning. It is important to repeatedly stress your body in ways that it hasn't been stressed before and that will undoubtedly cause DOMS so it's not something you should avoid. The old quote "pain is weakness leaving the body" is valid in this case. However, when you do similar exercises frequently with progressively increasing loads, DOMS will be minimized but you will get stronger. This is what you should strive for. By starting a new exercise out at reduced load you can minimize the pain and train more frequently, giving better prweformance than going out heavy the first time. You need to manage the pain to give yourself the best response. To assume that pain is good or bad is wrong. It's something to be managed.

Stu


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:19 am 
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Quote:
Ryan A wrote:
Another thing about olympic lifts, not all professional trainers would agree it is worth the time to bother incorporating them into training.


Ryan,

I understand that some professional trainers believe there are other movement that you can incorporate into you program rather than the Olympic movements. However, few rival the power outputs of the Olympic movements.

Precisely, which movements produce the same power outputs as the Olymmpic movements? I would be interested in seeing the data on that. Please provide that, as well.

That is one of the reasons you usually find the Olympic movement performed by football players, etc.

Quote:
You seem to be saying that everyone agrees


Ryan, nowhere in my post did I make that statement. However, the Olympic movements are usually a part of the majority of high school and college programs for football players some other athletes.

Quote:
and I would say from looking around and reading a lot of viewpoints that professionals are probably split down the middle on how useful they are compared to doing other explosive work.


And from my research, I would say that the majority of professional believe the Olympic movements are the most effective vehicle in the development of power vs doing other explosive work.

As I noted in my previous post..."doing some type of power work is better than nothing.

In addition, there is a difference between power and speed. Just because someone is powerful, doesn't make them fast.

I am aware of the that there is a difference between power and speed. However, overall the world in the world of sports Power Rules.

Quote:
Power is the combination of two things so you need not have power to be good at one of the two inputs: force or velocity. A train is powerful because it has a huge weight moving at a moderate velocity but it isn't nearly as fast as say, a very light car, just as a mountain is stronger than a train because it weighs more.


"Power = Force x Distance/Time

"Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed. Therefore

Strength x Speed = POWER.

... if an arbitrary strength score for an athlete was 2, and the athlete's arbitrary speed score also was 2, the hypothetical power rating would be:

2 x 2 = 4

Doubling strength without altering speed would double power:

4 x 2 = 8

If the same athlete made only a 50 percent gain in strength and an equal gain in speed, the power rating would be:

3 x 3 = 9"

A 10 lb ball that is dropped 42 inches deliverys 90 lbs of force.' http://www.strengthcats.com/plyobenchpress.htm

Another example is ESPN's Sports Science's sumo wrestlers vs a punch from MMA's 'Rampage' Jackson. The sumo wrestler's force production was around 1000 lbs of force. The force of "Rampage" Jackson punch was calculated at about 1800 lbs of force. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYMX_3K_xE

Quote:
You probably witness many olympic lifters who are powerful and fast and also strong. That could be because the people who are best at the sport are outstanding specimens as well as intelligent athletes (or have good coaches who think for them) who know to develop all the strength qualities.


'...Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield. In his article, "Athletes and The Olympic Lifts", Hatfield comments: "Pound for pound, Olympic weightlifters have a greater level of speed-strength than any other class of athletes in all of sport.

So some of it came from genetics. But you can rest assured that much too came from the specialized training they undergo in that sport." Hatfield underscoring the value of the Olympic movements as a means of increasing power.

The problem is that the majority of the exercise that that are utilized to replace the Olympic movements in the development of power is that the are subpar. Subpar. meaning these movement do not measure up to the power one can develop with the Olympic movements.

Kenny Croxdale

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