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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:58 pm 
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HMMM, It appears as though, the Full Body vs Split Routines are the topic of the week, so I will ask my questions also. :lol:

First, the Background info....
Overall, I'm a Newbie to weight training, however, I have been training now for about 5 months or so, and on my Better Eating Diet for about 4 months or so.

Goals: Get back into shape, Increase Muscle, Lose Fat
BF%: +/- 21% in June (Haven't checked since then)
Weight: 162-167 (varies based on food intake)
Caloric intake: ~2000 Calories or less (maintenance ~2500)
Strength: Weak, but getting stronger.

My Current Routine is a 3 day Push/Pull Split.
Day 1: Push
Incline Press (Machine) 4-sets
20-15-12-10Reps

Seated Flies (Machine) 4-sets
20-15-12-10
OR
Flat Chest Press (Machine) 4-sets
20-15-12-10

Dumbbell Overhead Press 4-sets Edited not a Chest Press
20-12-11-10

Standing Side Lateral Raises 4-sets
20-16-15-14

Tricep Pushdowns 4-sets
20-16-15-14

Bench Dips 4-sets
20-14-12-10
Superset with Seated Chest Dips 4-sets
8-8-8-8

Day 2 Pull:
Close or Wide Grip Pulldowns (Alternating weekly) 4-sets
20-15-12-10

1-arm dumbbell Row 4-sets
20-15-12-10

Bicep Barbell Curl 4-sets
15-12-11-10

Standing Cable Curl 4-sets
15-12-11-10

Day 3 Legs:
Squats (Just started these a couple of weeks ago) 4-sets
8-10 reps

Hyperextensions 4-sets
15reps

Calf raises 4-sets (Alternate weekly seated vs standing)
20-16-14-12

As you can see, this is a high volume workout and is performed with short rest periods usually no more than 60seconds, with exception to Leg Day where rest periods usually last 1.5-2min (still Short). Also, I throw in some Cardio (not enough) and Extra Ab Work

The routine has been working fairly well. While I have not lost any weight, I am becoming more "Fit" and building some muscle. However, I have found that I am quite Weak and would like to change this. Also, as you can likely tell, my Day 1 workout is quite long. I'd like to try and shorten this time if possible.

My thought is to switch to a Full Body workout such as the Starting Strength program. However, I feel that I still need to stay in a caloric deficit to try and help get rid of the last bit of Fat around the Gut. Is this a good option for my goals (Fat loss mainly)? I intend to stick to the original workout plan and exercises (Squat, Deadlift, Bench Press, Row, Standing Barbell Press).

Is this a good idea, or should I just tweak/change my 3 day split routine that I am currently doing. As I become stronger and more experienced in the Gym, I am replacing the Machine exercises with Free Weight Exercises. A Prime example of this was adding Squats and Hyperextensions by replacing Leg Curls and extensions. If I stick to my current 3-day split, I'll be switching to a True Barbell Bench Press soon instead of the Machine Flat and Incline Presses I am currently doing.

All opinions wanted and sorry for the long post..
Cliff


Last edited by wilburburns on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:26 pm 
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You have 4 exercises for chest, but 2 for back and only 1 for legs. And unless you go deep, squatting doesn't really hit the hamstrings. Your routine is unbalanced with regard to the 4 major muscle groups (quads, hams, chest, back).

Switching to a full body routine three times a week will burn more fat than a split routine. The key is to keep the rest intervals between sets short.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
You have 4 exercises for chest, but 2 for back and only 1 for legs. And unless you go deep, squatting doesn't really hit the hamstrings. Your routine is unbalanced with regard to the 4 major muscle groups (quads, hams, chest, back).

Switching to a full body routine three times a week will burn more fat than a split routine. The key is to keep the rest intervals between sets short.

I won't disagree, however, I will add that I did not put this routine together, I found it from another site. I didn't and still don't have the experience or knowledge to put a workout together on my own.

This is one of the reasons I am considering an existing full body workout. However, I would also be happy to have a better 3 day split.

As far as my squats, Yes, I do go pretty deep. I'm trying very hard to not be "THAT" Guy in the gym who only half squats. :wink: I want to add some Deadlifts of SLDL's to my Leg Day, but I'm still trying to get used to doing actual squats.

Thanks,
Cliff


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:53 pm 
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OK, After my edit above, I do question How you get 4 exercises for chest, but 2 for back.

I see..
Day 1:
2 Chest
2 Shoulder
3 Tricep

Day 2:
2 Back
2 Bicep

My Routine is likely still unbalanced though

Cliff


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:39 pm 
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wilburburns wrote:
...Day 1 workout is quite long. I'd like to try and shorten this time if possible.

That's right on.

wilburburns wrote:
My thought is to switch to a Full Body workout such as the Starting Strength program. However, I feel that I still need to stay in a caloric deficit to try and help get rid of the last bit of Fat around the Gut. Is this a good option for my goals (Fat loss mainly)?
It's a great routine, and yes, it's a good option for weight loss.
wilburburns wrote:
I am replacing the Machine exercises with Free Weight Exercises.
That's the right thing to do!

Also, in case you're keeping track, I also counted 4 chest exercises in day 1: 2 bench press, fly, dip. Yeah, bench and dip are compound and hit your shoulder too, which is good, but you don't need them all at once.[/quote]


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Here's my 20pence worth for what it's worth. If it's incorrect in anyway i'm sure it will be corrected.

With the routine you're doing at the moment you're gonna end up with a big upper body and skinny little legs, and that really isn't a good look. You're doing roughly the same amount of isolation exercises as you are compound movements and there's no need for that. On top of this there's a massive, and i mean MASSIVE imbalance between upper body and lower body. You're biceps, which are small muscles in the body, are getting the same number of exercises as you're legs!!!

My advice would be to bin the workout you are on and move straight away to the one you mentioned. It will firstly address the upper/lower imbalance you have and secondly if you do the 3x5 sets/reps ratio you can't fail to get stronger.

Thats what i would suggest for what it's worth.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:14 pm 
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If I were you:

Drop the curls and do Chins instead.

Definitely add Deadlifts.

Search some of the more resent threads, Stu & KPj have listed out quite a few leg/hip/glute exercises to add to your leg day.

Like you said, please get off the machines…

(Warning personal opinion) Drop the flies; use that energy for something else, like cooking after your workout.

Upright Rows, shrugs, and one I just found yesterday, the high pull can't hurt. One of these would be great replacement for the other set of curls you didn't drop for chins.

I was in a similar spot as you a few weeks ago, this site is great and these guys are smart and willing to help out people like us. Starting Strength is a great program, but it can be intimidating, I messed around with it, which is a cardinal sin, but what I have going works for me for now. If you want to split, and it will keep you lifting rather than on your couch, than split, just be smart about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:05 pm 
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NO!

Why keep trying to re-invent the wheel? Mark Rippetoe has more knowledge in his left earlobe than any 6 of us have put together. Just do SS and have done with it.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:10 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
NO!

Why keep trying to re-invent the wheel? Mark Rippetoe has more knowledge in his left earlobe than any 6 of us have put together. Just do SS and have done with it.


Worst part is, your 100% correct, I know it now, read it when I looked into the program, yet I was still stupid…

I hope OP is smarter...

(But I think he wants to stay with a split, so SS might not work into his plan…)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:17 pm 
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"Stupid" is too strong a word.

You're enthusiastic, which is good.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
wilburburns wrote:
...Day 1 workout is quite long. I'd like to try and shorten this time if possible.

That's right on.

wilburburns wrote:
My thought is to switch to a Full Body workout such as the Starting Strength program. However, I feel that I still need to stay in a caloric deficit to try and help get rid of the last bit of Fat around the Gut. Is this a good option for my goals (Fat loss mainly)?
It's a great routine, and yes, it's a good option for weight loss.
wilburburns wrote:
I am replacing the Machine exercises with Free Weight Exercises.
That's the right thing to do!

Also, in case you're keeping track, I also counted 4 chest exercises in day 1: 2 bench press, fly, dip. Yeah, bench and dip are compound and hit your shoulder too, which is good, but you don't need them all at once.
[/quote]

Thanks Doc,

The Bench Dips seem to be more of a Tricep exercise than a Chest Exercise, but that's not really the point..

Given the fact that I'm not a Teenager, and, I'll be working on a caloric deficit, what type of gains should I expect. See the quote below. I doubt that age and diet will allow me to add 10-15#'s per workout. But I could be wrong.

Quote:
from: Mark Rippetoe, Practical Programming, Pg. 122
For young males that weigh between 150-200 lbs., deadlifts can move up 15-20 lbs. per workout, squats 10-15 lbs., with continued steady progress for 3-4 weeks before slowing down to half that rate. Bench presses, presses, and cleans can move up 5-10 lbs. per workout, with progress on these exercises slowing down to 2.5-5 lbs. per workout after only 2-3 weeks. Young women make progress on the squat and the deadlift at about the same rate, adjusted for bodyweight, but much slower on the press, the bench press, cleans, and assistance exercises.


Cliff


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Stupid in the way I won't get out of it what I could have, even if I switch tomorrow… Plus I'm afraid of the power clean…

Yeah I love this stuff...

Wish i started deads 6 years ago rather than 6 weeks...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:23 pm 
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nygmen wrote:

Worst part is, your 100% correct, I know it now, read it when I looked into the program, yet I was still stupid…

I hope OP is smarter...

(But I think he wants to stay with a split, so SS might not work into his plan…)


I'm not attached to my split or even keeping a split. I'm willing to change and likely will. I just want to make sure I am working out the best way to give me the best gains.

Cliff


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:25 pm 
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wilburburns wrote:

I'm not attached to my split or even keeping a split. I'm willing to change and likely will. I just want to make sure I am working out the best way to give me the best gains.

Cliff


General consensus is drop the split from what I've heard…

Sorry to assume, I inferred that from your posts.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:27 pm 
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nygmen wrote:
= Plus I'm afraid of the power clean…



I know what you mean there, but from what I have been reading lately, there are a couple of Rows which are replacements for the Power Clean.

Cliff


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