simple pre-post workout meal questions

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zachsikidhart
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simple pre-post workout meal questions

Post by zachsikidhart » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:48 pm

what kind of foods are good for pre and post workout meals?

a few searches got me some shakes and supplements, but i have no plans in taking them.

I basically want to know when would be a better time to eat the ham sandwich or chicken fillet, or whatever NORMAL food I can find. Also, it would be great if you can also tell me of foods that are best left out of pre or post workout meals.

Thanks!!!


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Post by pdellorto » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:14 am

Depend on the person, and when you eat.

Yesterday before kendo I ate a chicken cutlet, some yogurt, and a small piece of cheese - about 2 hours before class. I was really feeling it during class. I know from past experience no amount of time between "eating peanuts" and "strenuously exercising" works for me. Unless I ate them more than 15 hours it just sucks. Meat of any kind needs a good 3-4 hour break before I'm at my best exercise potential. The more solid the food the worse for me. In any case, I try to stop eating 60 minutes before I leave for class, which leaves me a good 90 minutes before I start serious exercise to digest things or at least let them settle.

On the other hand I know I can eat fruit (apples, bananas, pineapple, peaches work well for me), plain yogurt (usually with some raisins tossed in), silken tofu (with raisins tossed on top, tastes like firm pudding), or a raw carrot. A whey protein shake will do as well. That all works pre-workout for me.

Post-workout I can eat anything.

So I was faced with your eating dilemma, I'd eat that stuff after...I know for me meat doesn't sit well so I'd eat after working out and have some fruit first.

But like I said, it depends on you! Read what I wrote but test it yourself. If you can down ham and chicken before working out with no downsides, do it! If yogurt makes you queasy while you train, no matter how good it works for me don't eat it before you train.

Hope that helps.

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Re: simple pre-post workout meal questions

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:31 am

zachsikidhart wrote:what kind of foods are good for pre and post workout meals?

a few searches got me some shakes and supplements, but i have no plans in taking them.

I basically want to know when would be a better time to eat the ham sandwich or chicken fillet, or whatever NORMAL food I can find. Also, it would be great if you can also tell me of foods that are best left out of pre or post workout meals.

Thanks!!!
One of the best book on this is The Performance Zone by Dr John Ivy. You can get a used copy cheap on amazon.com

Ivy's reasearch indicates that a 4:1 mixture of carbohydrates with whey protein in water it the best. Ivy prescribes about 20 grams of matodexrin mixed with 5 grams of whey protein.

This beverage is taken about 30 minutes before your workout. The same beverage is sipped during your workout.

The post workout beverage is 15 grams of whey protein with 60 grams of maltodextrin.

However, eating something is better than nothing.

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Post by Ironman » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:20 pm

The carb level is ok, you could maybe go as high as 75, but only post workout. Before workout 20 is good but only for bulking. That is nowhere near enough protein though unless you are tiny. You at least want to get 40 before and the same again after if not more. As much as I love to eat, and I can put away a lot of food. I can't eat like 10 pounds of meat or whatever it is each day so I rely on protein supplements.

Really they are not even supplements, they are just food. They just extract the protein from milk. I hope you have a big stomach and can get a half a gallon of milk down before and the other half after. Do you like tuna and salmon, that's another way to do it. Get the white tuna it has more then the other one. You have to eat several cans a day, but at least it's physically possible.

The food I mention is normal, but you are NOT going to be eating normal. You are going to be eating a lot of certain things. I hope you don't fill up on the meat and milk. If you are bulking you have to get your carbs in too.

hehe :) Good luck with that.

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Post by zachsikidhart » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:22 pm

Oh, I'm not trying to bulk up in any way.
I'm 24, 5'10 and nearly 190lbs @ 26% bodyfat.

My chest is noticeably bigger, and I have doubled my squat load after just a month. I think I have lost around 2% bodyfat, but gained a few pounds.

I'm not sure how good or bad my results are, but I'd really like to go down to 170lbs, a pretty decent weight to save my knees and ankles.

Anyway I usually eat a sandwich before, then probably some grilled chicken afterwards, kinda like carbs before, protein after. Is there a better rule of thumb?


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Post by stuward » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:02 pm

Eat some carbs before for energy, like some fruit. I like oatmeal about 1 hour before. After have some carbs and protein, Kenny gave you one way, fruit and milk make good post workout snacks. Get to like tuna from the can. Drink lots of water.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:53 am

You at least want to get 40 before and the same again after if not more.


40 grams? Where you get that information from?

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Post by Ironman » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:17 pm

It's just from how much you need in a day. I guess you could have smaller shakes more frequently. One gram per pound of body weight is kind of minimal. If you want to bulk you need a bit more. Of course as he said, he isn't trying to bulk. He probably still needs around 150 grams a day. If he's not bulking he doesn't really need the carbs either then. If someone isn't trying to make their muscles larger, I really fail to see why it matters if you recharge the glycogen or not.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:51 am

Ironman wrote:It's just from how much you need in a day. I guess you could have smaller shakes more frequently.
The "guessing" part is what bothers me. I was interesting in seeing what scientific data you had on it. My fault for not stating that.

That one of the things I like about work by Dr John Ivy and others. What they prescribe is based on scientific research.
One gram per pound of body weight is kind of minimal.
1 gram per pound is a debatable topic. I am not convinced a gram per pound is necessary.

As someone once said, "It not how much protein you consume but how much you digest that important."
If you want to bulk you need a bit more.
For bulking the general recommendation is to increase calories. By doing so, you increase you protein intake as well as fats and carbohydrates.
Of course as he said, he isn't trying to bulk. He probably still needs around 150 grams a day. If he's not bulking he doesn't really need the carbs either then. If someone isn't trying to make their muscles larger, I really fail to see why it matters if you recharge the glycogen or not.
+

Glycogen is the primary fuel in training sessions. It's like gas for you car. If you don't refuel, don't expect to go too far.

Research by Dr John Ivy in The Performance Zone (as well as by others in other stuides) details how glycogen restoration improves recovery after a workout. Neglecting this "window of opportunity" and you won't reciover as quickly as you shjould have.

It's poor judgement not to ingest some type of beverage that contains carbohydrates after your workout.

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Post by TimD » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:53 am

Just a comment on protein requirements. I've seen recommendations that are across the board, like the USFDA on the low end, to the supplement mfr's on the high end. What I've seen MOST of the sports nutritionists recommend is anywhere between 0.7 to 1.0 gr protein/lb LEAN bodyweight (NOT actual bwt) and this is based on activity levels. (Drs, Sears, DiPasQuale, Eades).
Kenny, just kind of curious as to Doc Ivy's take on this.
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Post by Ironman » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:36 pm

I think you misunderstood, Kenny. I am not guessing. When I said "I guess you could have smaller shakes more frequently", that is a figure of speech. It means you can have smaller shakes more frequently, but why would you want to. It would be a pain in the butt to have to make shakes every 2 hours.

I go by 1 gram per pound to maintain. That is for someone fairly lean. For the overweight, you base it on what they would weigh if they were lean. It doesn't have to be down to the gram or anything. In my experience and the experience of other bodybuilders I know, including someone who has been doing it over 20 years, you need that much. You also need whey before and after the workout.
For bulking the general recommendation is to increase calories. By doing so, you increase you protein intake as well as fats and carbohydrates.
That is WAY oversimplified. You need way more carbs during bulking than cutting. The actual levels are going vary a lot from person to person because everyone handles carbs differently.


I know replacing glycogen helps recovery. It would be poor judgment not to, if it mattered. If you are cutting, you shouldn't expect to go to far anyway. You still haven't stated a reason why it matters for those goals.

Besides that everyone handles carbs very differently. Some people can eat whatever. Some people can almost gain weight just driving past a doughnut shop.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:23 am

TimD wrote:Just a comment on protein requirements. I've seen recommendations that are across the board, like the USFDA on the low end, to the supplement mfr's on the high end. What I've seen MOST of the sports nutritionists recommend is anywhere between 0.7 to 1.0 gr protein/lb LEAN bodyweight (NOT actual bwt) and this is based on activity levels. (Drs, Sears, DiPasQuale, Eades).
Kenny, just kind of curious as to Doc Ivy's take on this.
Tim
Tim,

Ivy recommends .6 to .7 gram per pound. However, if an athlete is undergoing rigorous training, up to 1.2 gram per pound.

I suspect tha that the majority of individuals on this board would fall into the .6 to .7 grams per pound.

As you mentioned, calculatin protein intake on lean body weight would make more sense.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 am

Ironman wrote:I think you misunderstood, Kenny. I am not guessing. When I said "I guess you could have smaller shakes more frequently", that is a figure of speech. It means you can have smaller shakes more frequently, but why would you want to. It would be a pain in the butt to have to make shakes every 2 hours.
Then where are you getting 40 grams? What is your reference on this?
I go by 1 gram per pound to maintain. That is for someone fairly lean. For the overweight, you base it on what they would weigh if they were lean. It doesn't have to be down to the gram or anything. In my experience and the experience of other bodybuilders I know, including someone who has been doing it over 20 years, you need that much.
Anecdotal evidence from someone who has been doing it for twenty years is good. Is this you only reference on this?
You also need whey before and after the workout.
I stated that as well in my post.
For bulking the general recommendation is to increase calories. By doing so, you increase you protein intake as well as fats and carbohydrates.
That is WAY oversimplified. You need way more carbs during bulking than cutting. The actual levels are going vary a lot from person to person because everyone handles carbs differently.
Bulking is simple math for the most part, meaning more calories. If someone wants to manipulate how they get them, that fine.
I know replacing glycogen helps recovery. It would be poor judgment not to, if it mattered. If you are cutting, you shouldn't expect to go to far anyway. You still haven't stated a reason why it matters for those goals.
We've been through this in another post. Insulin, when utilized correctly, is an anabolic hormone. Glycogen also reload the muscle cell.
Besides that everyone handles carbs very differently.
The majority of individuals hand carb just fine. Some individuals, such as yourself, don't appear to.
Some people can eat whatever. Some people can almost gain weight just driving past a doughnut shop.
You are relating this to your condition. By "some people," you mean "my people"...people like you. Don't get your people mixed up with the rest of us...lol.

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Post by Ironman » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:53 pm

The 40 grams thing is just a ballpark number, but it is just that high so you can get enough protein without having to make 10 shakes. The reason for the number is usually a scoop of whey protein has anywhere from 20 to 25 grams. So you take 2 scoops.

Most bodybuilders seem to agree on that much protein for bulking. Except for a few that think you need even more. I have heard people say as much as 2 grams per pound. I think that's not needed though.

Bulking is not math. Nothing about metabolism is. There have been massive threads on here about that. You need more carbs to bulk, because you need the more efficient fuel source they provide. When you cut you want just the opposite. It's the calories that make it to your cells, which are only some of the ones that go in your mouth.

We have been through the insulin before and I still don't agree. You still don't have a reason why it matters while cutting.

Most people do not handle carbs just fine. That is why we have so many fat people, and such a rise in type 2 diabetes and metabolic disorder.

My people? What, am I the patron saint of endocrine problems now? lol
Actually everyone falls somewhere on this scale. From one extreme where a small amount of insulin takes care of the most massive sugar rush, to people who have really high levels from eating something that is normally healthy like a small bowl of oatmeal. Everyone is different.

I get a lot of my information from Charles Poliquin. Here are notes someone took at his fat loss seminar. It really sums up a lot of good info on the topic that is usually kind of spread out through various articles and books he has written.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=37869341

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:08 pm

Most bodybuilders seem to agree on that much protein for bulking.
I was more interested in something beside anecdotal data. What studies you might have read.
Bulking is not math. Nothing about metabolism is. There have been massive threads on here about that. You need more carbs to bulk, because you need the more efficient fuel source they provide.
That does not make sense. Consuming calories above your daily expendature will increases body weight. Carbs are not classified as a "bulking" macronutrient.
When you cut you want just the opposite. It's the calories that make it to your cells,


Some individuals do cut carb to make it work.
We have been through the insulin before and I still don't agree. You still don't have a reason why it matters while cutting.
Cutting carbs out of your pre, during and psot workouts delays your recovery.
Most people do not handle carbs just fine. That is why we have so many fat people, and such a rise in type 2 diabetes and metabolic disorder.
We have more fat people primarily from over eating rather than anything else. Dan Duchane once said that he was more concerned about the volume carbohydrates rather than the glycemic index of those foods.
My people? What, am I the patron saint of endocrine problems now? lol
Your labeled youself as the poster child...so, i guess so.
Actually everyone falls somewhere on this scale. From one extreme where a small amount of insulin takes care of the most massive sugar rush, to people who have really high levels from eating something that is normally healthy like a small bowl of oatmeal. Everyone is different.
Everyone is a bit differnt. However, the majority of individuals fall more into the normal range. That is why medications work for most people. The same can be said in regard to exercise and diet.

Only the minority have problems.
I get a lot of my information from Charles Poliquin. Here are notes someone took at his fat loss seminar. It really sums up a lot of good info on the topic that is usually kind of spread out through various articles and books he has written.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=37869341
Overall, I like Poliquin. I will check out the information.

Kenny Croxdale


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