Fat loss dust-up

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Onlyethic
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Fat loss dust-up

Post by Onlyethic » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:29 pm

Hi

Been a while since I posted, but I've been reading along.

I'm at that fed-up point that seems to come every so often regarding fat loss. I've done an okay (but really just ok) job lately, cutting out sugar and junk carbs. But I need to dive back in and shave off the final 10-15 lbs, to get to a target of roughly 12-15% body fat. And I'm definitely prepared to focus on fat loss while putting muscle gain issues as secondary until my primary goal is achieved.

Here's where I'm at right now.

Workout:
I'm doing twice a week kung fu, which is HIIT-like work that involves bodyweight exercises (very fast air squats, knuckle pushups, pullups, etc, very few breaks). I also do 2 other sessions of bodyweight stuff bookended by a 12 minute warmup jog and 2 min. of sprinting, and, at the end, a 10 min. cool down jog. In all cases, resistance is low (or nil) but intensity is extremely high and prolonged for between 40min and 1hour.



Diet:
Kind of erratic. A typical day would be something like:

Breakfast- 1.5 cup branflakes + 1 cup yogurt + 30 g protein powder

Lunch - chicken sandwich or tuna sandwich (many times on white bread)

Coffee- 1-2 cups, black. Sometimes with soy milk.

Snack- yogurt+protein powder

Dinner - Variable, from sandwich to dish like chicken with rice or meat in a roll.

Snack - very similar to breakfast

Vit. & Supps-- Multi-vitamin + Daily fish oils



What I'm finding:

A. My recovery is very bad after tough workouts. This can safely be attributed to insufficient protein intake.

B. High protein days mostly consist of regular meals plus protein powder diluted into water. Leaves me very hungry.

C. Periods of high protein and solid eating seem to tend toward fat gain or non-loss. However, I'm eating probably 5-6 cups of bran flakes on these days, maybe more.

D. A recent moratorium on anything with sugar produces sudden results, but the subsequent plateau has been just as sudden.


All in all-- I'd say this is a pretty good mess. I've got the discipline to stick to a fairly strict plan for a while, as long as I'm not feeling hungry during the day (and I know, there's not much reason to feel hungry on an intelligent diet). So, I'd like to stitch together a solid plan I can stick with for a little while (thinking back to Dan John's "every thing works for 3 weeks (or 6 weeks)").

Anything you guys have to say regarding diet, workout, anything else, is greatly appreciated, and probably will be absorbed and integrated.


thanks.

OE


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Post by nygmen » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:55 pm

Vegetables can’t hurt

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:19 pm

Breakfast- 1.5 cup branflakes + 1 cup yogurt + 30 g protein powder
Carbs, what kind of yogurt & what kind of protein?
Lunch - chicken sandwich or tuna sandwich (many times on white bread)
Omit white bread & what are you including with the tuna and chicken? (mayo, dressings, etc) No veggies?
Coffee- 1-2 cups, black. Sometimes with soy milk.
Coffee is good, scrap the milk
Snack- yogurt+protein powder
Again what kind of yogurt and protein?
Dinner - Variable, from sandwich to dish like chicken with rice or meat in a roll.
Veggies? Omit rolls and rice.
Vit. & Supps-- Multi-vitamin + Daily fish oils
Good


It's not good for fat loss diet right now, keys points:

-Lots of carbs/sugar in your diet.

-More detail?

-Where are the veggies and fruits? You have no veggies or fruits.

-Your breakfast is terrible, where is the eggs or meats that have accually substance and nutrition in them.

-You seem to eat a lot of yogurt, have that as a snack during the day not with numerous meals.

-The variety of food sucks as well. There are other foods that you can eat that are great for dieting. I'd suggest you check out my diet thread.

If you want, due a little research and post a revised diet on here so we can analyse it.

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Post by Jungledoc » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:43 pm

Sounds like you are afraid of fat. Get over it.

Eggs. Meat. Mmmm.

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:01 pm

Sounds like you are afraid of fat. Get over it.

Eggs. Meat. Mmmm.
I didn't even notice that, good call. Set up like a low fat diet.


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Post by Onlyethic » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:40 am

Hi Ironmaiden

thanks for responding. Answers and more detail below.

"Carbs, what kind of yogurt & what kind of protein?"

the yogurt is a plain, no fruit add-in 1.5% yogurt. About 10g protein, and less than 100 cal. Protein is whey, by interactive Nutrition.
Lunch - chicken sandwich or tuna sandwich (many times on white bread)

"Omit white bread & what are you including with the tuna and chicken? (mayo, dressings, etc) No veggies?"

Mayo sometimes. Veggies almost always.
Coffee- 1-2 cups, black. Sometimes with soy milk.
"Coffee is good, scrap the milk"

Got it
Snack- yogurt+protein powder
"Again what kind of yogurt and protein?"

see above

Dinner - Variable, from sandwich to dish like chicken with rice or meat in a roll.
"Veggies? Omit rolls and rice."

so you're saying carb-less dinner. Is there a rule of thumb here? No carbs after a certain hour, or a regulated ramp-down from midday?
Vit. & Supps-- Multi-vitamin + Daily fish oils
Good


"It's not good for fat loss diet right now, keys points:

"-Lots of carbs/sugar in your diet.

"-More detail?

"-Where are the veggies and fruits? You have no veggies or fruits.

"-Your breakfast is terrible, where is the eggs or meats that have accually substance and nutrition in them.

"-You seem to eat a lot of yogurt, have that as a snack during the day not with numerous meals.

"-The variety of food sucks as well. There are other foods that you can eat that are great for dieting. I'd suggest you check out my diet thread.

"If you want, due a little research and post a revised diet on here so we can analyse it.


I'll check the thread and revise the diet. I think one big weakness for me is that my eating is all over the place-- which is why it's difficult for me to provide a detailed diet here. I think what I'll do is keep things written down and come back to the thread.


In terms of my workout, I know that I could be increasing effectiveness of fat loss with resistance training, especially in a HIIT framework. I might return to it in a few weeks, or maybe sooner if it's heavily recommended. But I'm also thinking about frequency of workouts. Is 4x week too little? Should I kick up to 5 or 6?


thanks again.

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Post by Jungledoc » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:26 am

My goal, in a perfect world, is to get my carbs from fruit and vegetables. By the time you get plenty of F&V, you'll have enough carbs in your diet. However, it's not a perfect world, and I don't always eat alone. My wife isn't as convinced about low carb as I am. I like having someone cook for me at the end of a hard day of work, so I'm not going to gripe about anything she cooks for me. We are often invited to eat with friends, and I'm not about to criticize what they serve me. I'll just take less of the rice or potatos, and pass on the bread, etc. When I have carbs other than F&V, I try to get it as low GI (or especially GL) as I can. I don't pay attention to the time of day.

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Post by stuward » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:36 am

Jungledoc wrote:... My wife isn't as convinced about low carb as I am. I like having someone cook for me at the end of a hard day of work, so I'm not going to gripe about anything she cooks for me. ...
I sent my wife this link: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/category/recipes/

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Post by KPj » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:19 am

Jungledoc wrote:My goal, in a perfect world, is to get my carbs from fruit and vegetables. By the time you get plenty of F&V, you'll have enough carbs in your diet. However, it's not a perfect world, and I don't always eat alone. My wife isn't as convinced about low carb as I am. I like having someone cook for me at the end of a hard day of work, so I'm not going to gripe about anything she cooks for me. We are often invited to eat with friends, and I'm not about to criticize what they serve me. I'll just take less of the rice or potatos, and pass on the bread, etc. When I have carbs other than F&V, I try to get it as low GI (or especially GL) as I can. I don't pay attention to the time of day.
I'm pretty much the same. I'm the way now that I have a few veggies with everything. And if i'm eating somewhere elsei just 'prioritise' the protein and eat little of the rice or pasta or whatever. I was thinking the other day that I can't actually remember the last time I had bread or potatoes. Wasn't trying to avoid them, just happened by chance.

For people who question it, like my work mates (who are all fat), i say, "get ALL your carbs from veggies. Anything else, you need to EARN!". They always ask how you 'earn' other carbs (bread pasta rice etc), and I just tell them that after an INTENSE work out, they have earned the right. They never follow my advice and they never lose fat. Well, occasionally, via some quick fix fad diet they lose 'weight'. But it goes back on quicker than it went off.

That's in reference to trying to lose fat, though. When i'm chasing Xlbs in a whatever lift I'll increase my carbs.

I really like the idea of 'earning' your carbs - it makes sense to me and I think it will keep me leaner for longer.

Also, when you cook veggies together, they merge to create some great tastes! I'm a follower of Precision Nutrition, but now that i'm used to the recipes and everything, I now really enjoy picking some random veggies and cooking them to see what they taste like together. Feel like i'll never get bored of it. Not to mention, there's a whole host of herbs and spices out there with lots of health benefits that i've still to tap into.

KPj

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Post by Onlyethic » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:32 am

Hey Stuward, thanks for the link. Checked it out. Pretty helpful.

And KPj, I also take an earn-my-carbs approach. My problem is that I get carried away after a big workout. Actually, the real problem is that I'm not regimented for after-workout nutrition-- not getting protein fast enough, not getting enough of it, and not eating a decent meal.

Anyways, I started a revamped diet approach today. I substituted a chicken salad with many leafy greens instead of my usual lunch sandwich. I'm going to grab chicken, eggs, tuna, veggies and cheese from the store and not buy bread or cereal and see how that goes. I drink no alcohol and have cut out sugar (at least 98% of my diet is sugarless) so that's alright.

I'm going to try this for a month at 90%+ adherence and see what happens. The positive thing is that after an intensely strict period, I can ease off since I never gain weight, just am not losing it at the moment.

I think I'm also going to buy a blender since there are times when I just can't choke down more chicken, eggs, or tuna but missing that critical nutrition screws up the entire day's eating (and, naturally, workout). I would definitely enjoy cooking but I am in extreme bachelor mode and barely have space to do real food prep. So, I need to work with/around that.

I'll probably keep my present 4x week HIIT bodyweight routine for now, maybe add a day. Though I might just bite the bullet and head back to the gym, despite the local standard $75/mo. membership fee. Or maybe I'll see about buying an olympic bar and some plates. Really only need it for deadlift, squat, mil. press, and bench press. The fine tuning I can accomplish with pushups, handstand push, pistols, pull-up, box jumps, knee raises, etc.

Any advice on this is appreciated-- mostly regarding frequency and duration. Though essentially, I know that (to answer my own question), my passage-point is recovery, which right now is a function of diet (sub-par) and sleep (poor). The former I'm obviously working on, the latter I've tried, but there's not much I can do about it.

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Post by nygmen » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:33 am

Onlyethic wrote: so you're saying carb-less dinner. Is there a rule of thumb here? No carbs after a certain hour, or a regulated ramp-down from midday?
I agree with the gentleman above. That being said…

When I eat bread, sometimes the craving for the bagel is just too much to deny myself; I try and eat it within the first two meals of the day. But this is not written in stone.

If dinner has pasta, rice or potatoes, like KPj said, earn it with an intense workout.

I am often times in the same boat as the Doc thou. I work past 7 most nights, don't get home until 8 and don't get back from the gym until 9. My wife can't wait that long to eat, and cooks dinner, leaving me a plate. Who am I to tell her to stop making pasta or rice? I'm not as foolish to dare complain, or even have a hint of complaining in my comments. So just make sure when you know your going to eat carb filled dinner, work a bit harder that day. Lower your portion and have a slightly larger snack later.

EDIT: Oops, took to long to reply, OP replyed and made my statements irrelevant

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:42 am

the yogurt is a plain, no fruit add-in 1.5% yogurt. About 10g protein, and less than 100 cal. Protein is whey, by interactive Nutrition.
What do those calories consist of? Their are low fat brands which are loaded with sugar. What do the calories consist of in the whey? There are isolates then you have complexes with tons of junk added into it.
Mayo sometimes. Veggies almost always.
You should have included the veggies in original description... Limit the use of mayo, olive oil would be a much better choice.
so you're saying carb-less dinner. Is there a rule of thumb here? No carbs after a certain hour, or a regulated ramp-down from midday?
No, if you want to lose fat then the low carb approach is the most effective and healthiest. So generally you want to remove as much of processed carbs as you possible can (bread, rolls, cereal, rice). Carbs like Jungledoc said should come as much from fruits and veggies as possible. Don't let the cravings gets you, it will become a pork fest if you do.
When I eat bread, sometimes the craving for the bagel is just too much to deny myself; I try and eat it within the first two meals of the day. But this is not written in stone.
If your dieting a bagel is a terrible food to grab. Open the fridge and grab the full fat yogurt, fruits, veggies, nuts, but not a bagel, accually just get that out of your house altogether. I have to add this to my diet thread but this accually was originally posted by stu, you need to get over carb/sugar addiction if you are going to diet successfully.

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Post by Onlyethic » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:13 pm

"What do those calories consist of? Their are low fat brands which are loaded with sugar. What do the calories consist of in the whey? There are isolates then you have complexes with tons of junk added into it."


The yogurt has no additives. It's Yoplait 1.5% bio "white". It's 113 cal, 8g protein, 15 g carb, 2.3g fat

The protein is this: http://www.interactivenutrition.com/products/whey.php

My next whey purchase will be isolate (I have trouble with that much dairy).
When I eat bread, sometimes the craving for the bagel is just too much to deny myself; I try and eat it within the first two meals of the day. But this is not written in stone.
If your dieting a bagel is a terrible food to grab. Open the fridge and grab the full fat yogurt, fruits, veggies, nuts, but not a bagel, accually just get that out of your house altogether. I have to add this to my diet thread but this accually was originally posted by stu, you need to get over carb/sugar addiction if you are going to diet successfully.[/quote]

I have pretty much broken my carb-sugar addiction. My challenge is now finding handy snacks to replace the very easy carb alternatives.


To get more specific on diet, today's eating was the following:


1. Breakfast--
3/4 of branflakes w/soy milk +
(about 20 min later) 1 can of tuna (in water) with half tomato and whole cucumber chopped in.


2. Lunch--
chicken salad. Mostly lettuce, about 1/5 of a carrot, eggplant, parsley, onion, cucumber (small handful, chopped) and tomato (also about a small handful). Roughly 3/4 chicken breast worth of chicken. A very light splash of vinagrette.


3. Pre-workout--33g protein powder (roughly 25 g protein) + 1 serving Champion Nutrition Revenge Sport carb drink (23g carb, 90 cal)


4. Post-workout -- 45 g protein powder (roughly 35g protein)


5. Dinner--
salad: basil, tofu, quarter tomato. Main: about 1 chicken breast in oven, cooked in table spoon olive oil, spiced, with 1.5 cucumbers chopped onto it.

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Post by Jungledoc » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:28 pm

stuward wrote:
Jungledoc wrote:... My wife isn't as convinced about low carb as I am. I like having someone cook for me at the end of a hard day of work, so I'm not going to gripe about anything she cooks for me. ...
I sent my wife this link: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/category/recipes/
Thanks. I read Mark's Daily Apple once in a while, and find good stuff there. Some of those recipes call for ingredients that are hard or impossible to get here in PNG, but some of them will work.

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:28 pm

The yogurt has no additives. It's Yoplait 1.5% bio "white". It's 113 cal, 8g protein, 15 g carb, 2.3g fat
Dump that yogurt asap, thats the s*** that is low fat and loaded with carbs. Get plain full fat yogurt if you want yogurt.
My next whey purchase will be isolate (I have trouble with that much dairy).
That whey I saw was fine.
1. Breakfast--
3/4 of branflakes w/soy milk +
(about 20 min later) 1 can of tuna (in water) with half tomato and whole cucumber chopped in.
It was good except bran flakes and soy milk. You don't need milk to get calcium.
2. Lunch--
chicken salad. Mostly lettuce, about 1/5 of a carrot, eggplant, parsley, onion, cucumber (small handful, chopped) and tomato (also about a small handful). Roughly 3/4 chicken breast worth of chicken. A very light splash of vinagrette.
Good
4. Post-workout -- 45 g protein powder (roughly 35g protein)
Save your protein 15-20g will suffice. Mix some natural peanut butter with it if you want.
5. Dinner--
salad: basil, tofu, quarter tomato. Main: about 1 chicken breast in oven, cooked in table spoon olive oil, spiced, with 1.5 cucumbers chopped onto it.
Good


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