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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:04 am
by Ironman
Well I think Tim has pretty much summed it all up. The answers to questions are in his post, Elemental. I thought they were in mine too though.

So first, you conradict yourself by saying you don't see what the problem is with lactose. Then later you ask if you are right about protein being harder to digest then carbs and using more energy to digest.

The thing is, I thought you would understand that's how it works with different carbs too and protein was just an example. After reading your last post, I think you don't know about how that works, and you were not really contradicting yourself.

Here is the thing with sugars. You already know that everything gets converted to a type of sugar your body uses for fuel. You also seem to know that protein and fat are much harder to convert and a lot of calories are lost/used in the process. Carbs are easier to convert. Not as much use or loss of calories. There is however a big difference between a complex carb and a simple carb or sugar. All simple carbs, including all sugars take virtually nothing to make them usable. The raw calories are pretty much the useable calories.

That is just 1 part of it.

The second part is insulin response. Carbs trigger an insulin respones. Complex carbs don't raise the level to high as they are metabolised over time. Simple carbs and sugars, however spike it up really high. They are used to quickly for starters, which causes fat storage because you can't use it all in time in some cases. Then the higher the insulin levels the greater your fat storage ability. For some people, there can be a desensitising effect where more insulin is needed, which causes even greater fat storage ability. Keeping insulin low will reduce your ability to store fat and make it easier to use fat as energy. Some sugars do spike your insulin levels worse then others which is why some people are ok with 1 kind of sugar and not another.

So if you want to cut or bulk slowly or cleanly, you want to avoid the starches and sugars. If you want to maximize your bulking ability, especially if you are lean, you want the sugars with your protein post workout.

That is the whole reason why nutrition doesn't boil down to "if you weigh X lbs then eat X calories".

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:40 pm
by elemental
I see, so its primarily becuase they aren't pushing your metabolism that you want to stay clear. However, if your using a PW drink you are most likely getting dextrose or maltodextrin, which are both sugars, along with some protein. So perhaps in the PW situation milk still has merit?

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:32 am
by Ironman
No, people in that situation should drink the plain whey without all that. The drinks with the dextrose and that are for the lean hardgainers who are trying to bulk as fast as possible.

The stuff I get has 3 actual carbs and 1 fiber. It is just the ingredients in the flavoring.

Like I was saying milk can be ok for certain people with certain goals. You still have to watch it though, because a large quantity of lactose can be hard on the stomach and intestines even for people who are not lactose intolerant. If you get the runs, you know to cut back.

There is some reason why dextrose and maltodextrin are suppose to be the best for hardgainers, but I am not sure why. I never really looked into it because weight gain has never been the hard part for me.

Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:31 am
by TimD
Maltodextrin is used in these products because they are rapidly absorbed, and set up the insulin release for storage, and are cheap to manufacture. See
Don't worry, it's not a rant, just a description.

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:40 am
by elemental
Ok, I think I'm on the same page, though I'm ever sceptical (its my nature). So wahta bout products like Carb Countdown. Where they remove the sugars from milk. In the same 1 cup serving youhave like 4 carbs (3 sugar) as opposed to the full double digits of 2% Milk?

Also, are you saying not to take carbs during PW when trying to cut?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:28 am
by kevin harris
elemental wrote:Ok, I think I'm on the same page, though I'm ever sceptical (its my nature). So wahta bout products like Carb Countdown. Where they remove the sugars from milk. In the same 1 cup serving youhave like 4 carbs (3 sugar) as opposed to the full double digits of 2% Milk?

Also, are you saying not to take carbs during PW when trying to cut?
i htink taking carbs out of your post workout is a bad thing
you need the insulin spike

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 8:47 am
by Ironman
Uh... Kevin.... I think you should start reading further back in the thread. We are talking about cutting and that sort of thing. I think we do all agree that for bulking ectos the carbs are pretty much a must have.

Carb countdown milk isn't too bad really. The best thing is probably unsweetened or splenda sweetened soy milk if you can find it.

That is exactly what I am saying (about the PW carbs). However, it is still a good idea to eat soon after the shake, or even with the shake. You want veggies though, not sugars. It is kind of like the difference between puting a log on the fire and puting a bottle of rocket fuel on the fire.

One exception is doing a rapid cycle, but that is fairly complex. You also have to be VERY hardcore to make it work.

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 8:59 am
by kevin harris
do you not agree the that an insulin spike right after a work out is what your body is looking for?
after a workout your muscles are starving for nutrients, be it a bulking or cutting cycle.
if you are on a low carb diet--fine, but the majority of your carbs should still be post workout simple carbs.
i agree complex carbs are far bettter for leaning out, bulking and every day life, except post workout.
the insulin spike from the simple carbs post workout replenshes your muscles from the depleted glycogen and puts the healing amino acids from the protien(hopefully whey)--- in a hurry!!!!

for every other meal i preach complex carbs, not post workout

you said you want veggies-- if you eat veggies that are high in the GI, great, but you are still looking for a insulin spike after your workout be it diet or bulk
do you agree with that point?

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:04 am
by kevin harris
i am talking about your post workout shake---protien and simple carbs

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:53 am
by TimD
Kevin, like Ironman said, you really should go back and reread the thread. For cutting, you are definately NOT liooking for an insulin spike, that's why the suggested route is take a small shake of pretein powder and water, then get a small to medium size low GI meal. Here is why (again). The workout sets up hormone manipulations, in particular it moves the body to secrete gh . Gh is a hormone that causes fat burning, and muscle growth/repair. Sugars cause an insulin spike, and guess what? It's a storage hormone. What else? It shuts down the wanted gh release. Do you really think thats wanted when cutting? I certainly think it's the wrong strategy. Now, let's look at glycogen replacement. For the average person, with the average weight workout, somewhere in the range of 20-25 gr of carb will top you off, and that might even tend to be excessive. Over that, everything goes into fat stores. NOT a good idea for cutting. By keeping the protein in water (and not much is needed), the amino acids are available, then by following it up with a low-medium GI small meal, your blod sugar will stay RELATIVELY stable, keeping any storage at a minimum while topping off glycogen.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:56 pm
by Danny
I like your eggs + veggies + whole wheat toast more than your milk and cereals one.
Try to have a variety of protein sources like cottage cheese, ground turkey, chicken breast, shellfish, haddock, harring, sardines, mackarel, buttermilk, top sirloin steak, tempeh
Why don't you eat nuts? People who eat nuts regularly are leaner and healthier and the reason is that somewhat nuts increase your BMR so you lose more by adding them to your diet

Also, you still want an insulin spike after working out even if you're cutting
Insulin is required to restore muscle glycogen and has also an anabolic effect on muscle. After you've worked out and your muscles run out of oxygen your body is synthesizing cortisol which tries to produce denovo glucose by using amino acids as a substrate, including your muscles
You need an insulin spike to stop cortisol production and begins refueling muscles and making amino acids available to them for repair
Growth Hormone is always produced after insulin has been produced and it is neede later by muscles when their glycogen stores are refilled, only later growth hormone will affect muscles and basically just at night
Your muscles can't grow or repait themselves after workout of during the day it happens just at night (just as bone growth and repair happens just at night when there's no gravity pressure upon the spine) but the muscles need insulin to make amino acids available to them
After workout your body is not producing growth hormone it is producing cortisol, growth hormone is produced only several hours after a meal and at night.
Again people believe that since insulin is an antagonist of growth hormone the fewer carbs your diet contains the more growth hormone you produce, and even a no carb diet would be the most gh producing of them all. It's not true since even on a 0 carbs diet the body is still producing lot of insulin and growth hormone is synthetized only several hours after the body produces insulin. Since bone and muscle growth happens only at night and we're not eating at night, producing not enough growth hormone becomes a problem only if you're waking in the middle of the night to eat carbs
That's why insulin and carbs are muscles sparing and the more you wait after workout the more lean body mass you catabolize because your body is not synthesizing any growth hormone after workout, just cortisol as it is to busy worrying about starving than about sleeping to grow
Some people believe that if you're cutting and you wait before consuming your postworkout meals you're burning fat but actually under the action of cortisol you're just destroying muscle tissue
Fat delays gastrict emptying and delays the uptake of nutrients after workout that's why your post workout meal should contain as little fat as possible and almost no overt fat and also contain an high GI carb

Interesting enough lean beef causes an insuling spike greater than white pasta as showed by the Insulin Score (Am J Clin Nutr 1997;66:1264-76) The reason is that indeed insulin is needed for processing amino acids and foods rich in proteins and low in fat are as insulinogenic if not more than carbohydrates

What you can also try is a kind of TKD diet
Carbs - No Carbs - Carbs - No Carbs - Carbs - No Carbs

What you have is most of the carbs in the morning to stop the production of cortisol and also your starving body will burn them more efficiently
The again you have a carbs at lunch since your body is an anabolic phase and have a higher BMR at this time of the day. The last carbs you have is divided with half right hafter your workout and 1 hour after your workout.
The workout and glycogen depletation made your body very insulin sensitive and very glucose tolerant and again the carbs you eat will be used to fuel the body and not stored.
All the rest is no carb or very low carb
This is very effective as by providing carbs only when you know your body: wants them, need them and can best process and utilize them you are sure they will used to fuel your body and spare your LBM
There are several studies that show the difference it makes to consume your carbs in the morning rather than at night and consuming them before and after workout rather than when you're less active


Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:17 pm
by TimD
The beef causing the insulin spike thing, even when eaten alone, is known as the glycemic load, or insulin index. A lot of the reearchers are now shifting from the GI to the II. The glycemic load USUALLY follows the GI, but a few exceptions have been noted, i.e fatty meats, dairy which are close to zero on the GI are up there on the II. Also, some of the grains high on the GI, like the various rices (even white) score moderate on the II.
As to needing an insulin spike after a workout, well, that's a hotly debated subject. Researchers have been finding that a hard workout (or just good old plain hard physical labor) sets up an insulin independant situation where it will absorb anything put into it.

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:54 pm
by Ironman
Well Danyy, if any of that stuff is true. I'll make sure I donate my body to science when I die. That way they can figure out what planet I'm from.

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:09 pm
by kevin harris
well written danny

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:17 pm
by TimD
I agree Kevin, it was extremely well written, I'm just with the other camp, and it is a hotly debated issue. Add to the fact that he tossed in references. Hope he comes back. Everone could use a good,solid, debate on the basic issues.