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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:38 pm
by nygmen
Ricky wrote:
nygmen wrote:No way you are forcing your body to gain more muscle than it wants to hold (from an evolutionary perspective) and then keeping ALL the muscle on a calorie deficit. It isn't happening as a natty.
If you're already where you want to be in terms of bf, why would you need to be in a calorie deficit? You don't need to lose weight

Also, I don't see why you're assuming the body "doesn't want to" hold onto muscle.

Again, if people are at extremes ( < 5% bf) then you're probably right about being able to lose it easily but I'm not talking extremes).
I've come to the conclusion that I'm thinking about a level of muscularity above and beyond everyone else in this thread. I think you are talking about "average gym rat" level of muscularity and I'm talking about "standing out with a sweatshirt on" level of muscularity.

<5% can't be maintained for more than a couple of days before you risk putting yourself in the hospital. You wouldn't have any fat on the pads of your feet at that point. You would be walking on bone.

Also, my perception of what is 10% and below is also quite a bit different here. I'm not sure who is right, but 9% and below is very flippin lean, and a natty isn't going to have the same amount of muscle mass as they would at 12%, 16% & 20%.



Image

That is 12% or so, and a genetic freak. But he isn't holding everything on the way down to:

Image

And you can't honestly think he lost all the muscle he lost between 7-4%, but held it all from 12-8%... That is crazy talk, lol.

here is the most recent pic I recall seeing of a dude <10%.

Image

While ripped to shreds, you wouldn't know he lifts in a shirt. But at 12-15%, I bet he fills out that same shirt.

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:06 am
by NightFaLL
Speaking of that last pic, the leangains guy, he should be doing natty shows if he's a natty - because he's definitely got the right physique for it - pretty much what my end-game goal is, honestly.

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:48 pm
by Ironman
That guy has too much of the abs showing to be 12%. He looks more like 9 or 10. The guy at the bottom looks very low, like contest shape, but it's hard to tell. When you can see any vague trace of your abs (not counting just the outline around the outside of them) it's about 13%.

Here is a good guide.

http://fitness.podarco.com/content/view/65/96/

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:38 am
by ApolytonGP
Leigh Peele has a video (and post) on this subject.

Lyle Mcdonald also has a thread with people giving bf% based on pics.

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:35 am
by nygmen
Ironman wrote:That guy has too much of the abs showing to be 12%. He looks more like 9 or 10.
In the top photo Jeff is over 10%. It is an "offseason" photo, and he carries a lot of his fat in his ass and thighs. They are smooth and washed out. He has awesome bellys that make him look bigger and dryer than he is.

Dude is a genetic freak. Over diets for his shows, IMO, but it is what the judges reward.
The guy at the bottom looks very low, like contest shape, but it's hard to tell.
Nah, it's his walking around weight. He is less than 4 weeks out if he wanted to do a show though. Some water manipulation and a carb up and he is all good.

BUT he needs WAY more size to not get destroyed on stage. His back lags hard in every way I could imagine.
When you can see any vague trace of your abs (not counting just the outline around the outside of them) it's about 13%.

Here is a good guide.

http://fitness.podarco.com/content/view/65/96/
I tend to agree that abs are a good guide, but it is very individual. I've seen a picture of Matt Kroc, damn near 20% with a decent ab outline. (I'll post it if I can find it.)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:40 am
by nygmen
ApolytonGP wrote: Lyle Mcdonald also has a thread with people giving bf% based on pics.
He calls anyone, with abs over 200lbs a "drug user"...

His opinion on this particular subject is doo doo. His perception to too clouded at this point.

You need to remember, he is human, and not right about everything all the time.

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:30 am
by NightFaLL
nygmen wrote:
ApolytonGP wrote: Lyle Mcdonald also has a thread with people giving bf% based on pics.
He calls anyone, with abs over 200lbs a "drug user"...

His opinion on this particular subject is doo doo. His perception to too clouded at this point.

You need to remember, he is human, and not right about everything all the time.
While I agree he does think people are on juice way too easily, I personally could highly doubt that the first guy you posted isn't on.

I'd even venture to say that the bottom leangains person has possibly cycled at some point, too.

The fact is that a lot of people have a skewed view on what's naturally possible - for two reasons:

1. Most people want to believe they can achieve these physiques naturally.

2. Almost all steroid users blatantly lie to every single person they know about using.

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:30 pm
by nygmen
NightFaLL wrote:
nygmen wrote:
ApolytonGP wrote: Lyle Mcdonald also has a thread with people giving bf% based on pics.
He calls anyone, with abs over 200lbs a "drug user"...

His opinion on this particular subject is doo doo. His perception to too clouded at this point.

You need to remember, he is human, and not right about everything all the time.
While I agree he does think people are on juice way too easily, I personally could highly doubt that the first guy you posted isn't on.

I'd even venture to say that the bottom leangains person has possibly cycled at some point, too.

The fact is that a lot of people have a skewed view on what's naturally possible - for two reasons:

1. Most people want to believe they can achieve these physiques naturally.

2. Almost all steroid users blatantly lie to every single person they know about using.
LOL, I totally agree with both your points.

Jeff is a natty, or at least passes all the tests at his shows.

If he is a total liar and a cheater, then so be it, I've been bamboozled.

(http://jrod123.blogspot.com/ At least I'm under the impression he is one of the bright shinny nattys right now, man I would feel like a tool if I had him confused with someone else.)

If the leangains guy has used, he should get his money back, lol. Either that or he forgot to hit his back while on. He has great delts and his chest is in good shape, but from the back he is behind the front.

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:51 pm
by NightFaLL
nygmen wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:
nygmen wrote: He calls anyone, with abs over 200lbs a "drug user"...

His opinion on this particular subject is doo doo. His perception to too clouded at this point.

You need to remember, he is human, and not right about everything all the time.
While I agree he does think people are on juice way too easily, I personally could highly doubt that the first guy you posted isn't on.

I'd even venture to say that the bottom leangains person has possibly cycled at some point, too.

The fact is that a lot of people have a skewed view on what's naturally possible - for two reasons:

1. Most people want to believe they can achieve these physiques naturally.

2. Almost all steroid users blatantly lie to every single person they know about using.
LOL, I totally agree with both your points.

Jeff is a natty, or at least passes all the tests at his shows.

If he is a total liar and a cheater, then so be it, I've been bamboozled.

(http://jrod123.blogspot.com/ At least I'm under the impression he is one of the bright shinny nattys right now, man I would feel like a tool if I had him confused with someone else.)

If the leangains guy has used, he should get his money back, lol. Either that or he forgot to hit his back while on. He has great delts and his chest is in good shape, but from the back he is behind the front.
I, personally, have no problem with people use - hell I wish I was as big as them and I'm one of the biggest guys at my university's gym. I'd probably do them if there weren't possible repercussions - I have way too much of a baby face to ever go to prison if I got caught, haha.

I'm also not saying it's guaranteed he's on, I just know a lot of guys who would never admit to using - not only for pride reasons, but for legal ones as well.

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:23 pm
by Ironman
nygmen wrote:
Ironman wrote:That guy has too much of the abs showing to be 12%. He looks more like 9 or 10.
In the top photo Jeff is over 10%. It is an "offseason" photo, and he carries a lot of his fat in his ass and thighs. They are smooth and washed out. He has awesome bellys that make him look bigger and dryer than he is.

Dude is a genetic freak. Over diets for his shows, IMO, but it is what the judges reward.
The guy at the bottom looks very low, like contest shape, but it's hard to tell.
Nah, it's his walking around weight. He is less than 4 weeks out if he wanted to do a show though. Some water manipulation and a carb up and he is all good.

BUT he needs WAY more size to not get destroyed on stage. His back lags hard in every way I could imagine.
When you can see any vague trace of your abs (not counting just the outline around the outside of them) it's about 13%.

Here is a good guide.

http://fitness.podarco.com/content/view/65/96/
I tend to agree that abs are a good guide, but it is very individual. I've seen a picture of Matt Kroc, damn near 20% with a decent ab outline. (I'll post it if I can find it.)
Oh I see what you mean. Yea, I agree, if the vast majority of your fat goes to the hips, thighs and buttocks, then you probably would look 9% up top when you hit 12%. I wish all my fat went there. Unfortunately it's almost all belly and chest for me. So I would have to be 9% to have nice abs.