Nice to "Meat" You...

[mark74]

Found this bit on wikipedia:

Leucine is the only dietary amino acid that has the capacity to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.[5]

5. Etzel MR (2004). "Manufacture and use of dairy protein fractions". The Journal of Nutrition 134 (4): 996S–1002S. PMID 15051860.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15051860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit: the abstract itself does not contain any reference to leucine at all :|

[stuward]

Bam, all that means is that there is a narrow window for utilization of BCAAs, so take them during the exercise workout period to make maximum use of them. My point was not what is optimal for bodybuilding but what was OK for fat loss. Muscle catabolization doesn't take place for many hours after eating. Protein will continue to be used throughout it's digestion wich can take a couple of days. On top of that, the body makes use of protein created by bacteria in the gut from digesting food. Jungledoc can probably give us a first hand account, but traditional diets in PNG are very low in protein (about 8%)due to lack of large meat animals, yet they are quite muscular people. I'm saying all this so to make the point that someone on a weight loss diet does not have to be concerned with 5-6 meals a day or eating every 3 hours or anyother such nonsence. In fact, a 24-48 hour fast will not have a negative effect on muscle. What is important that at least every 2-3 days, and ideally, everyday, the person eats until he is no longer hungry. That prolonged hunger is what causes "starvation mode" and reduction in metabolism. This is the trap most dieters find themselves in and the reason that rapid fat loss usually translates into rapid muscle loss and fat regain. That does not mean the person should be eat each meall until he is full. The body has to be in a fat burning mode at some point during the waking hours and for that reason, I'm recommending restricting carbs between waking and dinner, with enough protein and fat to prevent snacking on crap food, but no more. Dinner should be sufficient that there will be no hunger until bedtime, and no snacking during that time.

Note: I fully agree with the leucine research, very exciting, but lets not loose site of the good for want of the perfect.

[bam]

Thanks for the clarification Stu. I was getting a confused wrt fat loss vs bodybuilding. It makes more sense now. Thanks!

[Oscar_Actuary]

Stu,
review for me why we have to stop eating carbs for the evening meal, under your scenario
what if I want Steak + Potato
thanks!

I'm honestly going to make a beter effort again at dropping weight (fat). I've lost none, gained 11 lbs since asking if "Should I get stronger or lose fat".

[stuward]

I didn't say anything about restricting carbs at the evening meal. Overall your carbs should be near 100 grams/day or less for weight loss. In my scenario, you restrict carbs at all times other than the evening meal. That leaves lots of room for potatoes with dinner, assuming you keep your bread and pizza under control. For that matter, potatoes are one of the better high carb foods, no gluten, moderate glycymic index. Don't eat potatoes with green spots.

[Oscar_Actuary]

, I'm recommending restricting carbs between waking and dinner, with enough protein and fat to prevent snacking on crap food, but no more. Dinner should be sufficient that there will be no hunger until bedtime, and no snacking during that time.

ah my bad. I read it with extra words in my head, like a "to" in there.
Ok.

I can work towards this. I do train in the morning and like my scrambed eggs + spinach afterwards. And otherwise coud limit the day to small yogurt + berries, or chcken + brocolli,, peanut butter + celery, canned fish salad with olive oil, almonds/walnuts/pistacios/macedamia nuts

It really felt good to lose that 40 pounds. I fasted 24 hours 2x a week and otherwise ate everything, a bit less junk than the old day. Now, I see going to someting like this with mixing in some 24 fasts.

You've posted before that a binge night un does all the efforts of the week. I have trouble grabbing on to that. I worked my ass off to get this fat LOL. I mean, no one to blame but me. 4x week to Taco Bell, whole bags of sunflower seeds, pizza pizza pizza, working in Steak and Pasta restaurant - manager meals daily, bread stuffed with meats balls for snacks. Then, got a sedentary job, and gained even faster. Now, that weight gain occured in stages over 16 years. Maybe, I'm in denial and think if I just went back to my pre-twenty eating (you know, like regular folk) but healthieer - less grain, less simple carbs, more protein, almost 0 trans fat, plenty of good fats, lots of greens and tubars - I'd lose fat steadily. You make me think I have to eat strict 24/7 to make any progress.
IOW, I maintained 290-300 eating crappy, then lost 40 eating better but still not strict - with fasting added in.
It's sort of like I"m begging for permission to plan for a bit of cheating, like 10% of meals (someone said that right?). Or, is that for well conditioned folks, whereas fatties need to be strict 99.9 % ?

thanks, I'm sure this get old answering questions

[mark74]

I've never lost as much weight as you, my best so far is from 85 to 75 kilos in 4.5 months. My 2 cents:

99.9% adherence is great if you can stick with it, but IMO for most people it's the fast lane to insanity. Some can pull it off for a remarkable stretch of time then all of a sudden crumble, 9 times out of 10 you can't even see it coming.

90/10 is great and 80/20 is more than good by my standards.

But if you aim for 100g carbs like Stu said, things should be much much easier. I also think eating fewer big meals instead of many small ones is a good strategy. Most days I can go on 16-20h without feeling the need to eat anything.

[robertscott]

It's sort of like I"m begging for permission to plan for a bit of cheating, like 10% of meals (someone said that right?). Or, is that for well conditioned folks, whereas fatties need to be strict 99.9 % ?

all the coaches whose writings I like (all the T-Nation guys for example) say you are only allowed cheat meals either once you are lean, or if you've had a bunch of crappy workouts recently. It's too easy for every third day to become a "cheat day."

a good rule (for lean folk) is, you are allowed one cheat meal a week, on a Saturday. You are only allowed it if you've eaten perfectly all other times. One ridiculously unhealthy meal a week isn't going to cause you to gain weight, so make it count. Order 2 massive pizzas and scran them down. Then it's back on the healthy train. Simple, no ifs, not buts. If for some reason you don't have your cheat meal on Saturday, then tough titty, you've missed it til next week.

Also Oscar, you'd be better getting all your carbs in you post-workout meal. If you train fasted in the morning, have a massive breakfast with loads of protein and carbs.

[Oscar_Actuary]

There must be something between what it took to get me this fat and no cheating. That's all I'm saying.
And another recommendation for when to eat carbs

If not, I'll die early, but with tacos occassionally.

[robertscott]

I think Stu and I are saying pretty much the same thing. I like to eat my carbs after exercise when I've "earned" them, and he likes to eat his after a day of moving around and doing stuff. Either way the general idea of "earning" your carbs stands.

The main reason I eat my carbs when I do is because that is what the leangains guy recommends. I reckon fasting and nutrient timing are going to take over the dieting/fitness world soon

[Oscar_Actuary]

I think Stu and I are saying pretty much the same thing. I like to eat my carbs after exercise when I've "earned" them, and he likes to eat his after a day of moving around and doing stuff. Either way the general idea of "earning" your carbs stands.

The main reason I eat my carbs when I do is because that is what the leangains guy recommends. I reckon fasting and nutrient timing are going to take over the dieting/fitness world soon

Yeah, I've read a lot on his sight and about intermittent fasting.
Completely like the idea of eating until you are full and going long spans with nothing/minimal

I'd be interesting in knowing more about the diff between fasting vs little snacking (fats/proteins, limited carbs) before (assuming you eat at night) the big meal of day. With a wife and working out in morning, I find it tough to intermitten fast every day, hence, when I have done it, its for 24 hours 1 or 2 days aweek.

but I digress.

[jlmoss]

I like deer, squirrel, turkey, etc. Basically anything I can get from hunting. I'm told that it is much healthier than other meats from the grocery store.

Aside from that, the grass fed beef from my local farmers market is good or the cow from amish people that my butcher gets some of his meat from.

[stuward]

Oscar, read "The Warrior Diet".

[Oscar_Actuary]

Oscar, read "The Warrior Diet".

Ok.
Just bought it

[mark74]

Stu, Berkhan didn't seem too impressed by The Warrior Diet:

The Warrior Diet (20/4 hrs fast/feed). WD is actually not intermittent fasting in the strictest sense of the word, since the author allows small meals during the fast (vegetables, fruits). The WD book is somewhat of a cult classic, but the book prefers to quote stories and myth instead of scientifical evidence to supports it's (sometimes ridiculous) claims

I haven't read the book, any idea what he refers to?