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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:14 pm
by sonnygll
I think fat loss and keeping it off are best acheived through mass building. That's why I do it, I am never going to compete. I think weight lifting should be geared twoards the building of mass. An anaerobic exercise that does only fat burning should be in addition to a mass building routine. Such exercises may or may not involve weights. It could be many sets of very low weight with no rest in supersets. It could be done on cardio machines. Intervals are always a good idea.

I think circuit training is only good for a beginner. It can work for him for a while. Eventually he won't get much mass building out of it. Even right now it's not optimal.

If you do circuit training, I think a routine that gets everything and puts all your back work on the same day would be better. Stick with push/pull or upper/lower. Make sure everything is included and worked the same.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:52 pm
by Keith
If you read Maniac's first post, you will see that he is trying to lose weight. To try to build mass would be counterproductive to his goal.

I disagree about mass building being the most important factor in losing and keeping off fat. Diet is far more important.


Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:37 pm
by sonnygll
He didn't ask for diet advice, he asked about his routine. 1 pound of muscle uses an aditional 35 to 50 calories a day depending on activity level. How is that counterproductive? Building the muscle uses calories, why is that bad? The more mass you have the more energy you use doing exercises. So the downside to that is.....???? It is true you have to have a calorie surplus to max out your growth, but even with a restrictive diet, if you get plenty of protein and take your training to the max, you can still gain a fair ammount of muscle. Your body uses your fat stores. It gets stingy with fat stores and won't build as much as it will with food, but it still works.

Diet is important, but it doesn't fit in the topic of exercise type. Both sides of the equation are of equel importance, but we were talking about the output side.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:42 pm
by TimD
OK. Let's talk protocols of training. I didn't want to get into a long drawn out debate, because your advice will work, probably just fine, especially if Maniac is a beginner. However, I don't think it's optimal. The exercise physiologists have been studying different protocols for years now. (Berger, Stone, Kraemer and Fleck-who were associated with the USOC, and others). What the y found when comparing different protocols, was that a work to rest ratio of 1.5 or 1.1, performed with around 70% 1RM produced a higher elevated gh output, resulting in some lean mass production along with decreased bodyfat. These exercises were basic compound moves for the most part. This translates ROUGHLY to 45-70 seconds work (think 8-12 reps with a controlled cadence) with around 45 - 60 second rest breaks. Now, I'll give you that increased mass requires an upped metabolism, whereasfat does not require anything, the amount you increase overall mass is rather small, in comparison to what you can do by increasing hormone output.
Now, let's look at periodized programs. Most serious coaches these days, using the above information, use a Prep, or Adaptation block when starting athletes out, for a twofold purpose. 1. They want to lean out the athlete, and 2, build up his/her work capacity.They do this first, then go on to hyertrophy, power, strength, endurance or anthing else as necessary. Some systems, such as Crossfit, stress all of this NOT separately, but in combination.
All that being said, a proper diet is amust, and just use the proper tool for the proper job.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:46 pm
by BillL
The program Tim posted is a great example of the type of programs i have used over the past ~4 years, with excellent results. In fact, that one is complicated compared to some of the programs i've used.

My current program consists of a whopping 1 movement! Either PC&PP or snatch. All i do is as many singles as i can cram into a 20 minute slot with 90% of my 1rm, 3x a week and that 's it. Before that, i did nothing but deadlift.

I started out at 5'8" and 130#. After just over 3 years of training like this, i have gone to 180# and not changed sizes in clothes at all - in fact, my little beer belly is history and i actually adjusted my belt by one notch tighter. You don't get much leaner than that. I have the work capacity of a herd of pack mules and have some pretty impressive limit strength for my smallish size.

I have found that its about working your ass off in a short period of time on big movements and staying far away from marathon workouts and isolation/assistance movements.

The other key is a good healthy diet. Don't count carbs, protein, whatever, just eat when you are hungry and eat healthy. Period.

It's that simple.

I think i will go do some dumbell swings for my workout tonight. Yep - just swings - nice and heavy.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:11 pm
by Ryan A

I am in a situation where I dont want to build muscle mass. I already weigh more than I want to. Regardless of bodyfat, I dont want to weigh anymore, even if it is lean muscle. Not only do I want to improve bodycomposition but I also want to lose weight, period. If I get to 210 and have 8% bodyfat, I woudl gladly start losing muscle to bring my weight to 195 and go up to 10% bodyfat. Regardless of whether it is fat or muscle, it puts stress on the joints that I dont want to handle.

In addition, being strong does not mean being big. There are plenty of small guys who lift large amounts mroe than bodybuilders, even if the bodybuilder is 50% heavier.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:02 pm
by sonnygll
Tim and Bill, I disagree and will leave it at that. I didn't post any 10-20 set a part marthons. I posted a pyramid where half the sets are barley warmups, and a low volume. First your talking extereme HIT, then the low intesity and periodized stuff of the high volume guys (while I get accused of being high volume.) I see that it doesn't matter what you eat. So that means all macronutrients are the same. That's funny considering all carbohydrates aren't even the same.I wonder why I can gain or loose weight with the same caolrie level by eating things that are metabolized differently.

Ryan, I know all that and nobody is talking stength. If it was a situation where someone had all the mass they want, like you, I would recommend something different. BTW Why so light? Or are you short? I can see what you mean though, I never want to weight more then 250.

The bottom line is, Maniac posted, a mass building workout. He asked for someone to improve it. Then he expressed interest in lower volume version. When he had that he asked for a second opinion. As in an opinion on the routine, not a totally different routine. If someone goes to a furniture store for a recliner, you don't show them a couch.

One thing I don't get. When different people come in here I'm one of the few who posts something different.

Like for the mass/pyramid thing here I posted something different for that. then something a little different for a low volume mass builder. Then something totally different for that guy that wanted a high volume shoulder routine. A high rep medium volume routine for someone who wanted endourance. Then a 4X12 for a strength person (although new research indicates 8X3-5 is better). Then a superset and drop set routines for someone who wanted that. Yet a couple of you (and I can't remember who) post the same damn thing for every single person. It is like bodyweight stuff or a randomly peiced together circuit routine without any thought to what is actually being worked. Then when it is critisized there is all this talk of periodized routines, but Ryan is the only person I have EVER seen post one. Not to mention the (evil) pyramid routine I posted goes along with the same progressive overload techniques that are behind periodized routines.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:10 pm
by Keith
Not to hijack the thread, but are you still doing some Crossfit workouts, Tim. I have stopped doing it altogether and have been doing Bryce's 50/20 thing. Some of the guys on his board swear by it. I have done it before, but never given it a few months. I always get pulled in another direction

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:52 pm
by TimD
Hi Keith, and yes, I know what you mean by getting pulled in different directions. I still like using the CF template, although I follow CF North Carolina (they are closer to me). However, I l have adopted using at least one heavy day, the maybe a metcon workout, take a rest break, then repeat. I'm getting old, and 3 on with 1 off is not bad, if you play it right, but I need my recuperation. I'm going to assume that most people knowledgeable about CF would pay attention to their ideas, but would tailor it to their needs or preferences.
Good training, Keith

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:43 am
by sonnygll
oops.... That's a point. We kind of hijacked your thread starting this morning. Sorry about that Maniac. Don't worry about wading through all this. If you're even still following this, just use this.

and this

To make your own workout.
Split it upper/lower or push/pull but use the list from a 4 day split. It is kind of ambiguous but the auther is talking about 1 or 2 sets for each exercise. This site reccomends a periodized routine with either light and then a heavy set each day you work out, or a light day and then a heavy day. I say just add the light sets into your warmup routine and then go heavy. That brings you close to the principles of HIT without being to minimalist.

When you go through the muscle directory, pick out a compound lift for each major muscle group. Pay attention to which muscles are listed and to what degree they are involved. Then pick the appropriate isolation excercises to go with it. You won't need much. Other then that follow the directions in the routine builder and good luck to you.

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:47 am
by bill
Many of us post the same damn thing because of one simple reason - and
you can disagree with that all you want - but IT WORKS!

My workouts do for me whatis important - keep me fit, hellishly strong and give me great endurance capabilities, while maintaining a healthy bwt.

THe type of workouts you promote have done NOTHING for me other than make me sore as hell and eat into my recovery time.

As a father of two small children, a mma competitor and someone who just wants to keep fit in general, i have no use for anything other than the other simple old time routines.

Don't take objection to your routines as a personal shot. You posted your opinion, we posted ours. As someome without formal training, but years and years of life experience, i post only what i know works. I don't challenge others' ideas, i simply offered maniac a simpler alternative.

By the way - double swings with a dumbell equal to minimum 3/4 of your own body will hit EVERY INCH OF YOUR BODY. Try it and tell me if you need anything else after that.