introduction and request for program critique

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, ianjay, stuward

Matt Z
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4505
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:35 pm

I see your point, however upper-body musculature is more complex in form and function. Also, just because lower body muscles are larger doesn't neccissarily mean they need more volume and frequency. Finally, there's more overlap in leg training. For example, barbell squats train not only the quadriceps, but also the glutes, hamstrings, inner thys, hips, erectors, soleus, ect. By comparison a bench press involves mainly just the pectorals, front delts and triceps (other muscle groups are involved, but generally not to any great extent).

Of course, even I'll admit that a 4 to 1 ratio of upper to lower body workouts is arguably a bit much. However, a 2 or 1 or even 3 to 1 ratio wouldn't be inapropriate in my estimation.

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Stephen Johnson » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:48 pm

The larger the muscle group, the greater the anabolic environment created in the body by working them. Exercises like squats and deadlifts cause the body to release more testosterone and growth hormone than upper body exercises do. That's the rationale behind the 20-rep squat routine. The end result is a bigger and stronger physique overall, not just bigger legs.

An exercise routine that isn't anchored by a big lower-body movement, in my opinion, misses out on an anabolic growth opportunity

Matt Z
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4505
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by Matt Z » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:56 pm

I don't dispute that. However, training legs 3 or even 2 days a week just isn't practical for everyone. For many 48-72 hours just isn't enough recovery time.

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:27 pm

Matt, it all depends on the intensity of how you work them. Done in a heavy/med/light fashion, they can easily be done 3 X week. I know many O lifters I train with that do some form or other of squatting 6days/week, and thats not even counting the clean and snatch recoveries. Done low volume, with an eye on intensities, it can easily be done.As a matter of fact, if you're into conditioning, it's a very good way to go.
Tim

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Stephen Johnson » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:42 am

TimD

I can just imagine MattZ in Keith Rowland's dungeon blasting his legs with a take no prisoners/demolition derby routine. Advanced lifters sometimes prefer to work bodyparts once a week, and be done with it.

I didn't know, though, that Olympic lifters did so many training days. But now that I think of it, exercises like the snatch requires a lot of technique that can only be mastered by a lot of practice. They have to be real careful about cycling heavy workouts into their training to keep from overtraining.

User avatar
Ironman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3991
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am

Post by Ironman » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:32 am

When I did my legs all on one day, I was at it for 60 minutes every Thursday. Then it was Sunday before I could walk normally again. I was pretty tired after that hour, I'm kind of liking it split in 2 now. They are easier to get through and even quicker since I do calves while recovering from my last set of squats.

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:37 am

Hi Stephen. I know exactly what Matt is talking about, and I don't really disagree, for what he is doing, and why. However, for me, and at my age, every morning, when I wake up, I do 3-4 circuits of 8 chins, 8 P bar dips, 15 leg to elbows (on bars) either 8 overhead suats or 8 no hands front squats (empty bar), and 10-12 clean grip muscle snatches, just for a wake up, and it really gets the metabolism kicked up. My workouts vary, but keep in mind, I'm more in tune with metabolism shake ups than building anything these days, so it's ALL about full body. O lifting, well, it's all about picking something up off the floor and putting it over your head, and you must practice, so divy up the hard days, with the practice, up to 70% or so, and you can do it every day. My trick is this, on front and back squats, I dont go over 110% of what I can clean for triples.It keeps everything into perspective.
At Colorado Springs, at the facility, these kids train all day long, for 6-7 days/week. They break it up into blocks of 2-3 hour, but they also keep the volume fairly low, and coach keeps an eye on the intensities. They are into meticulous cycles (whether thats good or bad), but the point being, they cn train full body all week, and all these kids are at the elite level.
Tim

HaeSuse
n00b
n00b
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:26 pm

Post by HaeSuse » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:21 am

TimD wrote: Day 1 Mon
Squat 4-5 x 6-8 (take 2-3 lighter warm ups and hit about 2 hard (top weight) work sets
BP same
Bent row same
Semi stiff leg Dls or good mornings 2-3 x 10-12
Abs

Day 2 Wed
Alternate sets on 1. Overhead press (prefereable to take the bar from the floor and power clean it, but if taken off the rack, it's ok too).2. Barbell Curls same sets reps scheme
Alternate Close grip benches with DB hammer curls 2X6-8 (no warm ups needed

Day 3 Friday
Deadlift (regular) 4-5X5)same progression
Inclie Bp or P bar dip,weightedsame thing 4-5X6-8
Pullups weighted same
Split squat or lunge 2-3 X 10-12 each leg
Abs

ive been doing pretty much this exact workout, for 2 weeks now. got a few questions, though:

1) by "alternate sets", what do you mean? like, 1 set of close grips, followed by 1 set of hammer curls, repeat 3 times? ive never done this. whats the reason for it?

2) on the bent rows, ive been doing the ones where you put one knee on a bench, one foot on the ground, and you row with DB's. this cool? or should i be doing standing BB bent rows?

3) this routine totally lacks in calf, forearm and trap work... 3 of my fav muscles to work. so should i just add 3 sets of calf raises to one day, 3 sets of wrist curls to another day, and 3 sets of shrugs to another? im a drummer, and calf/forearm strength/endurance are key to what i need out of a workout

4) i am most certainly going to be doing cardio. one of my main goals is to get my heart back in shape after 10 years of smoking 1.5 packs of cigs a day ( i quit 6/7/05 ). i have a huge family history of heart problems... when should i work it in? pre workout? post? on off days?

5) i dont feel like my back is getting nearly enough work, with this... throw in some pulldowns? or maybe some upright rows?



thanks for all the help, guys.

Ryan A
Member
Member
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:41 pm
Location: Davis, California
Contact:

Post by Ryan A » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:57 am

(5) You could add some back exercises to day 2 so you are training them every day.

(4) Also, as far as cardio goes, just be aware that cardio is not synonomous with aerobics. Cardio is anytime your heart rate rises for an extended period of time. If you lift weights with short enough rest breaks, that is cardio as well.

(1) one reason to do alternate sets is to reduce overall rest time without reducing individual exercise rest time. This gives you more calorie burning via raised heart rate without reducing significantly your lifting performance.

(3) Calves forearms and traps get worked when you do all of those exercises. Calves get worked when you squat. Traps get worked when you do shoulder presses and deadlifts. Forearms get worked when you do biceps and upper back. If you really want to economize training these muscles and many others, learn to do power cleans and start all your days off with 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps.

(2) thats fine.

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:13 am

Ryan pretty much answered it all. Just an addendu to number 5. You're doing eighted chins on one day, heavy rows on another, and on the middle day I originally suggested to powerclean the bar from the floor for the standing presses. This, together with the GM's and regular deadlift on days 1 and 3 should be plenty.
Tim

Matt Z
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4505
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by Matt Z » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:19 pm

The advantage of alternating curls with close-grip presses is that it cuts down on rest time, since the triceps are resting while the biceps are being worked, and vice versa. This doesn't mean however that you can't rest at all between exercises. You can take a minute to catch your breath. Just don't rest as long as you normally would between sets of the same exercise. This works best when training opposing muscle groups like biceps with triceps or chest with back.

HaeSuse
n00b
n00b
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:26 pm

Post by HaeSuse » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:36 pm

Ryan A wrote: (4) Also, as far as cardio goes, just be aware that cardio is not synonomous with aerobics. Cardio is anytime your heart rate rises for an extended period of time. If you lift weights with short enough rest breaks, that is cardio as well.
well, this doesn't exactly answer my question... i understand that my heart gets a workout when i do resistance training. however, one of my main, first and foremost, goals, is to increase cardiovascular strength/health/endurance. i am determined to not get winded after 15 minutes of playing soccer or american football with my friends, or riding my bike for 20 minutes, or swimming for 10...

so, again, when/how should I do the extra cardio?? i do understand that this can reduce total mass gain from working out. i don't care. heart > strength, in my priority list. (swimming, biking are about the only 2 i like to do, and am willing to do)

so, pre workout? post workout? on off days?



and again, thanks for the prompt and supremely helpful posts, guys. it helps to have input :)

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Stephen Johnson » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:06 pm

You can do a 10 - 20 minute cardio workout after weight training, and longer ones (20-45 minutes) on your days off from weight training. The cardio workouts after weight training should be fairly intense and brief, while the longer workouts should be less intense. Start out at the lower times, and increase the length as you become more fit.

Keep in mind that your total exercise should NOT leave you feeling fatigued at the end of the week. If it does, you're doing too much. Be sure to schedule off days

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:39 pm

Stephen answered already on the cardio, and IMHO he is absolutely right. I just want to make a note here though, since your goal is for football conditioning (both kinds, LOL, the US is , I believe, the only country where the termsoccer is used). Timing is the same as what Stephen said, but you may want to try something more along the lines of sprints, hill sprints, stair runs, done in intervals, as that more or less what you will need for sport. A long, slow run done at a heart rate target may be good for cardiovascular (heart) health, but the intervals will have much more carry over for your goals. It should also take much less time. 15-20 minutes is plenty.
Tim

Ryan A
Member
Member
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:41 pm
Location: Davis, California
Contact:

Post by Ryan A » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:45 pm

I am not sure how serious you are about playing soccer/football but I have two recommendations for you:

(1) Play more. The more you play the more specific shape you should acquire to play longer. This won't work if you are just walking around the field. Play at a challenging level and you will certainly progress over time.

(2) Make sure you are technically good at the sport and the strategy. This applies to all sports. Being technically sound can save you a lot of energy during a game. If you waste it, then you are going to fatigue faster.

In summary, know when to push hard and when to take it easy during a game, but when you push, make sure it is all out.

Post Reply