Slower reps

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hoosegow
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Post by hoosegow » Sun May 13, 2007 5:26 pm

I am going to throw this out there and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but going slow primarily targets your slow twitch muscle fibers. And though it is good to target them once in a while, it is the fast twitch fibers that put on the most muscle and strength. So while you are getting some benefit, working slow won't maximize your growth over time.


Kenny Croxdale
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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun May 13, 2007 6:17 pm

SuperSlow training advocated by Hutchings used a 10-0-10 count
Super Slow uses a 10 second eccentric and 5 second concentric movement. The turn around, amoritization phase, is slow...more like a 1-2.

With Super Slow, there is no rest during the rep...meaning no lockout at the top or resting of the bar at the bottom of a movement.

Thus, a set of 4 repetitions will take about 60 seconds.

Kenny Croxdale

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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Sun May 13, 2007 8:20 pm

Kenny Croxdale wrote:Super Slow uses a 10 second eccentric and 5 second concentric movement. The turn around, amoritization phase, is slow...more like a 1-2.
There appears to be several lifting tempos that lay claim to the name "Super Slow." I'm only familiar withthis one:
Super Slow is a form of strength training popularized by Ken Hutchins. It involves the combination of very slow speeds of lifting and lowering the weight, along with the general principles of the High intensity training approach advocated by Arthur Jones.

The 10 second lifting, 10 second lowering repetition speed was originally suggested by Dr. Vince Bocchicchio to Ken Hutchins, who further developed the protocol during Nautilus-funded osteoporosis research at the University of Florida in the early 80's. However, the method has been used in body building circles since the 1940s under the name MC/MM or muscle contraction with measured movement.

The method incorporates very slow repetition speeds as compared to traditional resistance training methods, with emphasis on minimizing acceleration to reduce the force the body is exposed to during exercise and improve muscular loading. Super Slow workouts typically consist of one set of anywhere from as few as two to eight exercises, often primarily compound movements, performed with little rest in between. Ken Hutchins recommends performing each set for between 100 and 180 seconds. A frequency of twice weekly is recommended for most trainees, with even less frequency for more advanced trainees. One drawback to the Super Slow method is that scientific research clearly indicates that for a set of an exercise to produce gains in muscle mass and strength, 30-90 seconds is optimal.[citation needed] Sets that last longer than 90 seconds fail to produce superior gains in muscle size or strength and may not allow for any gains to occur at all.[citation needed]

Proponents claim the very slow repetitions are safer and more effective than conventional repetition speeds, however force gauge studies and mathematical models have shown no significant difference in peak force or resistance encountered over the full range of movement between traditional Nautilus 2/4 repetitions, moderately slow 5/5 repetitions, and the Super Slow 10/10 repetitions.[citation needed] The only two studies showing better results with Super Slow than traditional Nautilus training are flawed in a manner invalidating the results (rep speed was not strictly controlled for in any of the groups and strength testing procedures failed to account for differences in fatigue rates at different rep speeds).[citation needed] Other research shows no significant difference in outcomes with different repetition speeds when similar training loads and set durations are used.[citation needed] However, in all of the studies where slow repetitions failed to show better gains, a much lighter weight load than the standard rep speed groups were used, which invalidates these studies. In one study the slow repetition group was given only 40% of their 1 repetition maximum while the standard rep speed group used 80%.[citation needed]Although claims of superior results are not supported by a large body of research, several peer reviewed and published studies conducted by Dr. Wayne Westcott have shown slow repetitions to be superior to standard repetition speeds.[citation needed]
Note that the article doesn't cite any references in the discussion about the efficacy of Super Slow training, which leads me to take it with a grain of salt

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Post by leif3141 » Sun May 13, 2007 10:46 pm

I guess I should clarify a little bit. The book said to take 3-4 second reps, not 10 or 15 like it seems to be heading towards in this post. It also said to "take a pause" at the midpoint of a lift. Another was to "go really fast", and (Ironman's suggestion) to preexhaust the big muscles with a exercise like a fly before a bench press. These were all suggestions if you do not have money to go buy extra plates because you already built up to what you had. Though in a couple of months this may be true of me, right now it is not. The only problem I was having was on Dumbell Benching because it is hard for me to get that much weight above me to start it. I guess what might be more helpful for me is if anyone has known someone who has done what I am asking with success (success being muscle growth, not necessarily sport performance or strength). I'd just like to know if I am wasting my time even thinking of doing this or not...but I could just do it and in a couple of weeks find out.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Mon May 14, 2007 10:00 am

Stephen Johnson wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:Super Slow uses a 10 second eccentric and 5 second concentric movement. The turn around, amoritization phase, is slow...more like a 1-2.
There appears to be several lifting tempos that lay claim to the name "Super Slow." I'm only familiar withthis one:
'
Stephen,

Wikipedia (the source you quoted) provided the Cliffe Notes version of the book.. Thus, much of the information in Hutchins' "Super Slow Protocol" book is omitted.

I purchased "Super Slow" from Ken Hutchins back in the early 1990s. Back then the only way to get the "Super Slow" book was to buy i tfrom Ken.

I practiced "Super Slow" for a while. I have some fairly good results with the program. It has a place in fitness training.

One of the benefits of buying Hutchins' "Super Slow Protocol" book was that I got to call him back and ask questions. Hutchins in one of the nicest guys there is.
Super Slow is a form of strength training popularized by Ken Hutchins. It involves the combination of very slow speeds of lifting and lowering the weight, along with the general principles of the High intensity training approach advocated by Arthur Jones.
This part is true.
The 10 second lifting, 10 second lowering repetition speed was originally suggested by Dr. Vince Bocchicchio to Ken Hutchins, who further developed the protocol during Nautilus-funded osteoporosis research at the University of Florida in the early 80's. However, the method has been used in body building circles since the 1940s under the name MC/MM or muscle contraction with measured movement.
Originally, the 10 secone eccentric/concentric movement was performed. I believe it was Vince who introduced Ken to Super Slow.

However, Ken revised it to a 10 second eccentric with a 5 second eccentric. So, it depends on who's "Super Slow Protocol" method you follow.
The method incorporates very slow repetition speeds as compared to traditional resistance training methods, with emphasis on minimizing acceleration to reduce the force the body is exposed to during exercise and improve muscular loading. Super Slow workouts typically consist of one set of anywhere from as few as two to eight exercises, often primarily compound movements, performed with little rest in between. Ken Hutchins recommends performing each set for between 100 and 180 seconds.
Ken chopped the length of the sets down to around 60 seconds. Hutchins recommended 4-6 reps per set. So, the longest time under tension would be up to about 90 seconds.

If executed correctly, I promise you that 60 seconds of constant tension is more than enough work and pain.
research, several peer reviewed and published studies conducted by Dr. Wayne Westcott have shown slow repetitions to be superior to standard repetition speeds.
Slow repetitions are superior to standard repetitions in what way? Again, Super Slow has a place in training. However, anyone using Super Slow exclusive will soon be left in the dust.
Note that the article doesn't cite any references in the discussion about the efficacy of Super Slow training, which leads me to take it with a grain of salt.
Exactly. Another group that touts the superioriorty of their training methods is the National Academty of Sports Medicine. Unfortunately, they NEVER can provide scientific data or even empirical information to back it up.

Kenny Croxdale


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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Mon May 14, 2007 10:27 am

hoosegow wrote:I am going to throw this out there and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but going slow primarily targets your slow twitch muscle fibers. And though it is good to target them once in a while, it is the fast twitch fibers that put on the most muscle and strength. So while you are getting some benefit, working slow won't maximize your growth over time.
That's a variation of what the personal trainer who was down on SuperSlow training told me. He said that sports, for the most part, required muscular explosiveness. There's nothing explosive about a 10-0-10 (or 10-0-5) tempo. The trainer said that slow training produced slow muscles. Even if fast twitch muscles are the prime movers, they aren't being trained to contract quickly and forcefully, or so one would think.

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Post by TimD » Mon May 14, 2007 11:18 am

Stephen, that might appear to be the case. However, we agree that Poliquin has a good rep. In his book "The Poliquin Principles" (which is basically a collection of articles he wrote back in the 90's for Muscle Media 2000), he devotes a chapter on tempo's, and actually states, that while not superslow by Hutchings standards, some tempo's such as 8-0-4 and 5-0-5 can be helpful early on in establishing a strength base, and says it might not be a bad idea for fypertrophy as well. He cited on of the coaches on the German Olympic Weightlifting squad as one of his primary sources for this. he goes into detail. Might not be a bad read, you can probably find a copy at a local good sized library.
Tim

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Post by leif3141 » Thu May 17, 2007 8:53 am

Has anyone here TRIED the slow reps? That's always a good indicator.

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Post by TimD » Thu May 17, 2007 2:10 pm

If you go back and look through the thread, I stated that yes, I have done several of Poliquins programs, where om the early acceumulation phases, there were slow reps , and yes, when not done soley, in all phases, they can be beneficial.
Tim

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Post by hoosegow » Thu May 17, 2007 2:28 pm

Yes. I will often change rep pace and often do different paces for the same exercise during the same training date.


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