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graeme355
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New here and some advice would be nice

Post by graeme355 » Wed May 30, 2007 7:41 am

Hi New here so hello to all


I am 45 year old male who has been lifting again for about 4 months. I want to loose some fat and gain some muscle.

I started on the muscle first and take Whey supplement, creatine, and fat metabolisers, and about 3000 cals a day with lots of protein

I am concerned that I am over training or missing something

I have a shoulder injury that limits some of the things I can do

My routine is as follows

Monday
Squats 3x10
Calf raises 3x10
Dead lift 3x10
Sit up super set 10 curls with a 10K weight followed by 10x leg raises with a 10k dumbbell on my ankles followed by 10 cable curls and do three sets of this.
Legg press and leg extension superset

Tuesday
Lat pull down 3x10
Bicep pull down superset with barbell curls
Bent over dumbbell row
Upright dumbbell row
Cuban Press
Barbell Shrugs
Hammer curls

Wednesday
Dumbbell press superset with DB fly’s
Sit up super set 10 curls with a 10K weight followed by 10x leg raises with a 10k dumbbell on my ankles followed by 10 cable curls and do three sets of this.
Wide bench press superset with closed bench press
Triceps cable
Cross over cable

Thursday
Lat pull down 3x10
Bicep pull down superset with barbell curls
Bent over row
Upright row
Cuban
Shrugs
Hammer curl



Friday
Squats 3x10
Calf raises 3x10
Dead lift 3x10
Sit up super set 10 curls with a 10K weight followed by 10x leg raises with a 10k dumbbell on my ankles followed by 10 cable curls and do three sets of this.
Legg press and leg extension superset


I have put on some muscle and moved my fat% down a couple of %

Any advice would be helpful


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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Wed May 30, 2007 8:37 am

1 - This is just my opinion, but it isn't a good idea to work out more than two days in a row, particularly for weight trainers over 40. Exercise provides the seeds of growth, but growth flowers when you're OUT of the gym resting.

You should either do a three day per week full body routine, a four day per week split routine (upper/lower or push/pull) or a three day hybrid (one full body and two splits).You don't have to work more than that to get results.

2 - Again, just my opinion, but a lot of lifters use supplements like people with crummy diets use vitamin pills. While the jury is out on the effectiveness of supplements (other than protein powders), there's no doubt that:

A) They're expensive
B) They won't compensate for a poorly implemented exercise/dietary program

3000 cals per day for a weight loss program seems a bit high to me. What are your height and weight? What are you eating? Do you do any cardio?

3 - It would be better to move the bent over row before the biceps pull down superset

Those are my first thoughts - don't have time now to go further.

Good luck

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Post by leif3141 » Wed May 30, 2007 8:59 am

Stephen Johnson wrote:1 - This is just my opinion, but it isn't a good idea to work out more than two days in a row, particularly for weight trainers over 40. Exercise provides the seeds of growth, but growth flowers when you're OUT of the gym resting.

You should either do a three day per week full body routine, a four day per week split routine (upper/lower or push/pull) or a three day hybrid (one full body and two splits).You don't have to work more than that to get results.

2 - Again, just my opinion, but a lot of lifters use supplements like people with crummy diets use vitamin pills. While the jury is out on the effectiveness of supplements (other than protein powders), there's no doubt that:

A) They're expensive
B) They won't compensate for a poorly implemented exercise/dietary program

3000 cals per day for a weight loss program seems a bit high to me. What are your height and weight? What are you eating? Do you do any cardio?

3 - It would be better to move the bent over row before the biceps pull down superset

Those are my first thoughts - don't have time now to go further.

Good luck
I agree...3000 calories sounds more like a muscle building program, not weight loss

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Post by graeme355 » Wed May 30, 2007 9:07 am

Yep sorry should have been clearer.
I am bulking up first before I try to lose weight hence the 3000 calories.
I am 5’7 and 190Lbs with about 25% body fat

Thanks for the advice I will look at how I can move my routine
What would be the reason for doing the rows before the bicep super set?

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Post by stuward » Wed May 30, 2007 9:33 am

You should probably stop bulking. Cut down to about 15% before bulking again. Keep the Whey and Creatine but you probably don't need huge amounts. I lose weight on 3000 cal/day but I'm 6'2". At 5'7" and your weight 3000 would normally maintain your weight except that most tables assume 15% bf. If you calculate at 170# which is where you would be if you were at 15%, you need 2750/day to stay even. Then subtract 500/day for a weight loss diet and you need 2250 in order to get down to your target weight.

You need your biceps fresh in order to challenge your back. You should generally always do biceps after back and triceps after chest.

Your volume on legs is very high. Legs are the largest muscles and working them with that volume will lead to overtraining. As Stephen said, a 3 day whole body routine is better to start with and then look at a 4 day split routine.

Here is a link to a Crossfit site that does 5 days in a row.
http://www.crossfitvaldosta.typepad.com/

Compare the volume to your routine. I'm not recommending this program but you can see that you are doing to much volume.


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Post by graeme355 » Wed May 30, 2007 10:38 am

Thanks I will look at reducing my calories as suggested.
I did start out with a three day full body but changed about 4 weeks ago to the one here.

I think I will drop the amount I am doing and have looked at the 2 day (Torso/legs& arms) split doing a day on day off on this site?

I found that with full body I didn’t have enough time as I exercise early morning before going to work.

If I did this while I am trying to reduce body fat should I also incorporate cardio on the “days off” or would this be to much?

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Post by stuward » Wed May 30, 2007 10:58 am

It depends on the cardio. You can do reasonable amounts. I walk with my wife on my off days with no problem. A friend trained for a marathon while trying to get in shape for dragonboat racing and doing Crossfit at lunch. It was a little much. You should be able to do moderate cardio on your off days as long as you don't get too intense.

If you don't have time for full body, cut back on the number of exercises. Focus on the bigger exercises, squats, bench press, bent row as your base and add in what you have time for. You could do a full body and rotate according to a schedule exercises to focus on that day. Don't try to go high intensity in everything at once.

The 2 day split is a good alternative.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Wed May 30, 2007 12:41 pm

graeme355 wrote:I found that with full body I didn’t have enough time as I exercise early morning before going to work
Stu is on the money when he says that the focus of a full body routine should be on big compound exercises like the squat, deadlift, bench press and row. When you think of it, there are four major body parts: chest, back, quadriceps and hamstrings/glutes. You can easily do a four exercise full body routine twice a week and spend the third (and fourth) session on the peripheral bodyparts like arms, calves, abs, lower back and neck.
stuward wrote: Don't try to go high intensity in everything at once
One reason that many people take too long doing full body routines is that they're spending too much time trying to set PRs in their pet exercises - most notibly the bench press. Waiting five minutes or more between sets eats up your time really quick. Clock management is an essential part of a good weight routine.

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Post by Ironman » Wed May 30, 2007 2:04 pm

3000 calories can be ok if you cut your carbs down. You are pretty much a beginner and you are overweight, so you can burn fat and build muscle at the same time. Enjoy this while it lasts.

Whey is the only thing I think a beginner should take. Creatine is good, but something to add later. Since you are already using it you might as well continue. I would stop with the rest of the supplements though.

Like Stephen said make the bicep thing your last back move. Another way to make that better is make it a tri set. Do barbell bent arm pullover, underhand pulldown and then bicep curl. However that is beside the point. While your routine is pretty good, it's an advanced routine. That is something you can do after a couple years of serious lifting.

I'd think an upper/lower split M,Tue,Thu,F would be good. Just lower the volume and concentrate more on bench, row, squat, deadlift and their variations.

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Post by graeme355 » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:14 am

HI
Thanks for all the advice, it has been really helpful.
I plan to start a new set on Monday.

Monday
Squats
Bench Press
Deadlift
Lat pull down Wide
Bent over row
Abs

Wed
Close Grip Bench
Biceps Curls Barr
Side lateral raise DB
Shrugs
Triceps cable pushdowns
Hammer curls

Friday
Squats
Bench Press
Deadlift
Lat pull down Wide
Bent over row
Abs

I wasn’t sure if doing Super sets was ok so have left them out.

Any tweeks you can recommend please feel free.

P.S i also plan to do some light Cycling on tuesdays and thursdays

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Post by TimD » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:02 am

Supersets are fine, especially if used when doing opposing movements, like benches and rows. They're very time eficient. Some people like doing them, others don't . So if you like doing them, do it. There are no hard fat rules, where the superset police are going to come out and arrest you. The light day on Wednesday seems to fit in between Monday and Fridays stuff quite nicely.
Tim

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:07 am

Your program looks good, but it's ambitious. This is not to discourage you from following it - many lifters do similar routines. But just two things to be aware of as you go forward:

1 - Doing squats and deadlifts together in one workout can be taxing, unless you stagger the intensity of the two exercises. If you go all out in both you'll be toast by mid-workout.

2 - Pay close attention to your lower back. Squats, deadlifts and bent over rows all heavily engage the lower back muscles.

But give it a shot, and get back to us about your progress. Good luck, and happy training

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Post by KPj » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:17 am

I was going to add my opinion but Ironman covered most of it better than i could of.

I will reiterate though - being a begginer, you will be able to lower body fat whilst adding muscle mass, aslong as you have a clean diet.

The program did look too advanced, and this is important, if not straightaway, then in the long run. I know from experience :-(

As for diet - Just something that helped me - First of all concentrate on the 'macronutrients' - Protein, carbs, fats. Get them right, which will be easier with a protein supplement. Don't think about the 'sexy stuff' until you can consistently get your protein and carbs right. I think a multi vitamin supp and fish oil supp should be staple in your diet as well. But if you get the fats right, and get your carbs right, and therefore eat lots of veg, you should get most of the desired nutrients anyway. So don't rush out and get them, if it's convenient, they will help the cause (mulitvit & fishoil). Start with the basics, even with your diet.

If you eat every 2 -3 hours, have a clean diet with necessary nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fats etc) and also make your muscles bigger or work harder, your metablosim will shoot up anyway... so no need for fat burners, at this stage, imo

I wouldn't waste my time with the cardio. Not just now anyway, assuming it was just for fat loss. If you were to do this effectively anyway, you would need to make it intense in some form or another, and doing something else 'taxing' on your off days doesn't give your CNS any time to recover...

Good luck :-)

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Post by graeme355 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:04 am

Hi Again
Thanks for all the advice it has been very helpfull
I started this week and took your advice split the squats and dead lift between Monday and Friday. To compensate I moved the shrugs from Wednesday to Monday and Friday and added a calf raise to the wed.
Feeling good so far.

Just a few questions for you though

I do about 8-12 reps with 3 sets per exercise looking to fail at the last set.

Is this the best way to go or should I look to do more weight with less reps or even less sets per exercise.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:56 am

No, I wouldn't change things now that you have your program set up. Just train for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. Make changes as you encounter actual situations in your training that warrant changes.

Good luck, and happy training


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