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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:56 am
by garofalof
I agree with you, but not sure for resistance

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:01 am
by garofalof
Matt Z wrote:PS.) This might sound a little sick, but has anyone here ever tried doing Handstand Pushups on parallel bars (to increase the ROM)? That's one bodyweight exercise that would be super-difficult.
I'll try

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:01 am
by TimD
Matt, not on P bars, but I have done them between two chairs, same effect. It's kind of like mil pressing bodyweight from the shoulders w/ the increased ROM.
Tim

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:47 am
by stuward
Not that I can do them or anything, but I believe that's a common gymnastics move.

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:49 pm
by Stephen Johnson
Stephen Johnson wrote:If your goal is to build functional strength for everyday tasks (as opposed to muscular hypertrophy), bodyweight exercises are a viable option. Gymnasts rarely engage in weight training. Bodyweight drills provide nearly all of their training. Yet they have excellent physiques and a high degree of functional strength
I'm wrong about gymnastic training:
One of the most important insights of modern training is that a highly developed level of strength cannot be maintained even by intensive performance of the event itself (Bührle and Werner, 1984). This insight has proven to be true in such very different events as swimming, cross-country skiing, and gymnastics. Gymnastics alone will not develop nor even maintain an adequate level of strength for advanced gymnastics (Oppel, 1967). Special conditioning must be performed, besides countless elements, combinations, parts, and full routines. Inconsistent strength training can explain the decline in performance, or at least the stagnation, of a number of athletes who had promising performances during the preparatory season. Once those athletes started to compete, their results did not live up to these expectations (Bührle and Werner, 1984). Gymnastics specialists have warned against decreasing strength training during the competition season (Borrmann, 1978: Hartig and Buchmann, 1988; Plotkin, Rubin and Arkaev, 1983; Ukran, 1969).

Special strength for gymnastics training must answer the demands of gymnastics. The principle of specificity implies that the exercises used in training should be similar to the exercises that must be performed in the competition routine. Therefore, we might imagine that the best training for gymnastics would be more gymnastics. However, long ago this was proven not to be the case (Borrmann, 1978; Oppel, 1967; Plotkin, Rubin, and Arkaev, 1983). Special training is necessary to develop the strength and power in the athlete sufficient for correct technical performance of skills (Hartig and Buchmann, 1988; Oppel, 1967). Repetition of the skill alone will not guarantee even a minimum level of strength to perform the skill correctly.
This article is intended for gymnasts at the highest levels of competition, so its relevance to us mere mortals is much less. But the higher up the food chain you go for any athletic endeavor, the more critical is the role of resistance training in the achievement of success.

But people on this board knew that already! ;-)

Bodyweight and the pesky legs

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:43 am
by Onlyethic
I have found that my legs are "underserved" by my bodyweight workouts. Not just my legs either, but my lower back and hip flexors as well. Basically the whole apparatus that keeps you walking in a correct, upright manner.

The real trouble for me is that I have patellafemoral syndrome-- an imbalance in the legs where the outer muscles are much stronger than the inner (the VMO), which causes the patella to be pulled laterally, causing cartilage erosion and edema.

I continually try to strengthen the VMO and also the "upright" muscles (lower back, hips, etc) so I walk straight with toes forward. But it's very difficult to make progress. Cycling would help, I think.

In reality, I think I need to work myself into heavy squats. I've noticed also that my midsection is weaker than it should be and doesn't properly support my posture. Sitting on the floor, I naturally hunch. I believe, but may be wrong, that squatting would do a lot for me there.

Ah...the neverending story of getting and staying fit.

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:16 am
by stuward
Try Peterson Step ups. http://www.jumpusa.com/jumpersknees.htm
(scroll down half way)
Here's another variation: http://www.charlespoliquin.com/members/ ... le&sid=184

These specifically target the VMO.

Another exercise is backward sled dragging. http://www.dieselcrew.com/articles/toddwilsonsledii.pdf

VMO etc

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:36 am
by Onlyethic
thanks stuward.

I've done something similar to the Step Up but have always been concerned about sheering force on my knees. This looks a bit better than what i did.

I suppose also there's a discipline issue with continuing to work with the problem instead of just ignoring it and doing pushups. Time to get to the grindstone.


thanks again

Daily High Rep Exercise

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:41 am
by Dean
I read an article the other month on Bodybuilding.com that really confused me. It was called something like "Get super strong" Basically it was saying you need to be doing 300 Bodyweight squats, 300 pushups, and the like, daily. I thought to myself how can you get stronger without any rest.

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:20 pm
by Ironman
There are a lot of idiots out there. Some people just have it in there mind that there is something magical about bodyweight that makes it so much better then weight from any other source.

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:34 pm
by TimD
Body weight stuuf is good, but doing those kind of reps won't necessarly improve limit strength. They will build a great amount of work capacity, but limit strength, no. Kind of depends on where you put your priorities.
Tim

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:32 pm
by stuward
Matt Furey has a different opinion. I'm not saying I agree but here it is.
http://mattfurey.com/combatconditioningmattfury.html

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:20 pm
by TimD
Stuward, I won't even argue with the pistols, handstand pushups, etc. Thats not what was posted in the bodybuilding.com article. Yep, before I touched a weight it was all about getting on the bars in the playground doing all kinds of stuff with bodyweight, and it's no wonder that while in Jr Hi, the first time I got ahold of my Dad's new weight set, I clean and pressed 145 weighing in a 95 lbs soaking wet. No doubt all the bodyweight stuff helped. But does that translate into doing 300 pushups daily will let you bench 3-400 lbs? No way you're going to convince me of that. Also, I usually don't trash people, but let me give you a bit of history on Matt Furey.Brooks Kubik came out with the book Dinosaur Training back in the late 90's or thereabouts, and started a newsletter, monthly. Good stuff. I have the whole collection. Good common sense stuff about the old ways and it mixed OL with PL plus the good old common sense stuff and also had lots of articles on martial arts training (Brooks was a pretty decent wrestler in his day). Matt Furey was a regular contributor, and a lot of his articles were on good old common sense training with all types of devices. Mostly a mix of bodyweight and good old fashioned barbells and DB's. It wasn't until he got very commercialized did he start touting all his glorious bodyweight only courses for megabucks. Unfortunately, Brooks went the same route. Bodyweight good? you bet. Will it in itself make you big and bad, well Matt Furey himself got to where he is with a mixture, so I'll leave it to you to decide.
Tim

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:45 pm
by pdellorto
Yeah, there is nothing magical about bodyweight exercises, except maybe the "you don't need much equipment" part. You can make them harder - moving from pushups to one-handed pushups to plache pushups, from pullups to L-sit pullups and muscle ups, and so on. You can do burpees for a hard full-body workout too. But there isn't any reason to only do bodyweight exercises; there are too many useful ways to train with dumbells and barbells and weighted bodyweight exercises to toss them aside.

I wouldn't jump right into 300 pushups and squats a day if you want to do that. Start lower, and build up. You can get to 300 a day I'm sure, without needing off days to rest (Indian wrestlers do much more daily), but not if you jump right there. I got to 200 squats a day for a while, before I decided rest days would be more useful. I got there by starting at 30 squats a day and every day or so adding 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 reps to the total. You can do the same with pushups. You get to the point where that much work isn't taxing enough to require a day off, while it is still enough to maintain you gains. You need to add to it somehow - change the pushups to make them harder for example - if you want to keep getting stronger.

I feel the same way about people who reject bodyweight exercises entirely as I do about people who reject weights entirely - I think they're both missing a very useful training component. Why restrict yourself?

Peter

Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:37 am
by Ironman
I just finished a short 3 week period of time where my bodyweight was exactly the right amount of resistance for close grip palm facing chins. Now it isn't. Solution: grab a plate. Underhand is still good, I'm just getting there on overhand. Why shun weighted, it is the exact same exercise, you just have the resistance set correctly. I can see bodyweight only for endurance and cardio, but strength and hypertrophy....NO WAY. The bodyweight guys are always the most shrimpy little guys in the place. What on earth can you get out of pushups when you weigh 90lbs and can do hundreds of them? Why can't you do 200 rep sets of bench press? In all cases you are contracting your muscles to counteract the gravitational pull of the earth on an object. 200lbs of person and 200lbs of iron require the same amount of force to push them directly away from the earth at 180 degrees.