Page 2 of 3

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:50 pm
by Ironman
ironmaiden708 wrote:The word 'toned' is such a generic term that I hate when people use it because it can imply a number of different things since everyone has their own definition of what 'toned' means. When I think of 'toned' I think of 99.9% of the population who have the ability to accomplish daily tasks (walking, picking up objects, walking up stairs, etc.). I consider weightlifting getting a 'build' or 'built', for you I wouldn't worry about getting bulky because of the weight you are currently at I don't think you have the genetics to put on serious bulk. Aim for a much lower repetition range, like Ironman said its useless going high with it. In general I wouldn't recommend going over the 15+ rep range because all that is another cardio workout that isn't necassary since you've already dedicated 3 days to it already. Since you are a soccer player I'd recommend doing walking lunges if you havn't added that already. Do it with weight that will bring you to failure after taking 20 steps or even less. Strech afterwards to prevent injury and to improve/sustain flexibility.

Agreed, toned is a stupid term. Also we might as well consider this guy a beginner. If he has been lifting very light, that's not going to do much of anything. Therefore he is still untrained.

More than 12 reps is endurance, it will have little to no effect on body composition. So if you want to change your body composition, high reps aren't going to get you there.

Try 10 reps at 70 to 75%, going a rep or 2 short of failure. Do that for a while and see what that does. You will not start looking like Jay Cutler overnight. If you do it for a while and your muscles get hard and a little larger, and you they get as big as you want them to be, and you really don't want them any bigger.... STOP. It's that easy. Do it until they are how you want them and then stop. At that time you switch to maintenance. If 5 pounds of muscle is your idea of "toned" then do the bodybuilding thing for a couple months, than bam, you're done, as quick and easy as that.

The other component is losing fat. When your muscles look how you want, work on this part. You are already active so you don't have to worry about that. Just change your diet. When you are lean, change to a maintenance diet.

For modest goals, you go at it hard for a short period of time. It's quick and easy. You have to get the idea out of your head that half-assing it is the way to achieve modest goals. That just wastes time.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:09 pm
by ironmaiden708
Ironman wrote: Agreed, toned is a stupid term. Also we might as well consider this guy a beginner. If he has been lifting very light, that's not going to do much of anything. Therefore he is still untrained.

More than 12 reps is endurance, it will have little to no effect on body composition. So if you want to change your body composition, high reps aren't going to get you there.

Try 10 reps at 70 to 75%, going a rep or 2 short of failure. Do that for a while and see what that does. You will not start looking like Jay Cutler overnight. If you do it for a while and your muscles get hard and a little larger, and you they get as big as you want them to be, and you really don't want them any bigger.... STOP. It's that easy. Do it until they are how you want them and then stop. At that time you switch to maintenance. If 5 pounds of muscle is your idea of "toned" then do the bodybuilding thing for a couple months, than bam, you're done, as quick and easy as that.

The other component is losing fat. When your muscles look how you want, work on this part. You are already active so you don't have to worry about that. Just change your diet. When you are lean, change to a maintenance diet.

For modest goals, you go at it hard for a short period of time. It's quick and easy. You have to get the idea out of your head that half-assing it is the way to achieve modest goals. That just wastes time.

Agreed 100%

It's a lost cause half-assing workouts

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:33 pm
by TimD
Ironmaiden, you have a point. Since we are on this site, we might as well use the site's definition of "Toning", which I have, and which the original poster apparently hasn't read, because his question is answered in full here
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Toning.html
http://exrx.net/WeightTraining/Myths.html
(see the section on higher reps burn more fat myth)
Tim

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:02 pm
by kal
your sayin that i have to increase the weight every time ?!! i can't carry heavy weights and i don't want to be bulky, know my body is what i want it to be my muscles are as big as i want them but i need to get rid of the fat.

every time when i lift i reach my limits.

i never did high reps always on 10 and with 3 or 4 sets.

i just came back from an injury and i need to work out hard so i can get rid of the fat i gaind but i didn't gain that much.

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:19 pm
by stuward
kal wrote:your sayin that i have to increase the weight every time ?!!
Only for as long as you want to make progress.
kal wrote: i can't carry heavy weights
You should progressively lift heavier weights until you can.
kal wrote: and i don't want to be bulky, know my body is what i want it to be my muscles are as big as i want them
Train for strength, you don't have to gain weight to get stronger.
kal wrote:but i need to get rid of the fat.
Then you need to look at your diet and burn more calories than you take in.

kal wrote:every time when i lift i reach my limits.

i never did high reps always on 10 and with 3 or 4 sets.

i just came back from an injury and i need to work out hard so i can get rid of the fat i gaind but i didn't gain that much.
Mix up your reps. 10 reps will not make you stronger. Try 5 reps or less for strength. Add complexes or sprints to help burn the fat.

Stu

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:34 pm
by ironmaiden708
You don't increase the weight every time, lets say you bench pressing and your goal is to be able to do 5 solid reps with 225lb. You don't try to do 230lb 5 times the next time you work out you keep with the 225 until you reach your goal then you increase the weight.

Hit the cardio, eat a balanced diet, low carb, no processed foods you know the deal if you want to drop off fat.

If your not looking to put on size then it is the wrong way to go with weight lifting. If by what you say is true and you are worried about getting bulky then don't aim to increase any weight, platow basically. Because with strength comes size.

But I don't get this you want to 'tone' your muscles, but you don't want them to get bulky. I don't know what you mean by 'toned'. Do you mean you want to build them without putting on bulk? I don't understand how that's possible. Someone please correct me if they can figure out how its possible or state how I'm wrong.

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:20 pm
by Ryan A
You can gain significant strength with almost no increased muscle "bulk". This is done by working a lot of low reps for strength and very low reps for power, always lifting explosively.

Lifting really heavy weights is about training your body to lift heavy weights; after a point it doesn't always have to do with putting on more muscle.

You should be able to gain a lot of strength without gaining too much size while simultaneously losing some fat, thus the net gain would be more "toned" which is exactly this, an increase in lean muscle with a decrease in fat.

Heavy is a relative term so I am not sure what is meant by "I can't carry heavy weights". Pick a weight you can do for 3 reps, that is your heavy weight; did I miss something?

As numerous other people have said, you need to change up your rep scheme every 8 weeks at minimum just for the sake of keeping your muscles responsive. Not to mention 10 reps is more conducive of gaining bulk for most people than would lifting 5 or fewer reps.

If you have never done a set of 5 reps with a heavy weight, you will likely get your butt kicked because you lack the refined motor skill to lift correctly when your body is actually getting taxed.

If you post asking for help, with seemingly little knowledge of what you should be doing, why do you keep arguing with people that are trying to help you achieve what you want?

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:50 pm
by Stephen Johnson
Ryan A wrote:If you post asking for help, with seemingly little knowledge of what you should be doing, why do you keep arguing with people that are trying to help you achieve what you want?
That's the $64,000 question. Some of the posters on these threads seem more interested in defending their failing workouts and lack of success against criticism rather than do what they need to do to progress.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:28 am
by Ironman
That seems to be very common. As a matter of fact a friend of mine at work, mentions his lack of progress and/or asks for advice all the time. Then defends the stuff that is not working for him. I give him the same advice and he never takes it.

What I really don't get is what part of "TIME" does this guy not understand. If he wants to cut up, why didn't he say that?

Lift heavy, low reps and eat low carbs and no junk. There it is in a nutshell.

I' sure you are looking for someone to tell you what you are doing is right and to keep going, or that you need to do 100 reps with 5 lbs. pink dumbbells. That, however, would be a lie, and that's not what we are about here. We try to help people by telling them how you really do whatever it is they are trying to do, with no BS or junk science. Just hard facts, and very well thought opinions and theories, with at least very strong anecdotal evidence at a bare minimum.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:55 am
by pdellorto
Not to pile on the OP, but yeah, if you keep doing the same thing you are doing now, you'll get the same results you're getting now. If you want different results, you'll need a change.

It's hard to accept sometimes, because suggestions to change sound a lot like "what you are doing now is WRONG!" It's not really that...what's being suggested here is that you try something different to get different results. Your current routine got you to where you are, the suggestions you're getting are to take you somewhere else.

That's all these guys are suggesting, really - nevermind what got you here, what's going to get you where you want to go next? Ironman may be blunt, but he's right.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:53 am
by kal
what i mean by toned is lean muscles body, my muscles are cut up.

i'll try to do the 5 reps with heavy weight, i never did it before but i'll try. but isn't this way gonna make me bulky ?!

changing my reps scheme every 8 weeks do i go higher or lower on reps.

after geting what i want how can i maintain ?! train with a medium weight and don't go higher ?!

thanx alot guys for helping me :)

what about abs work out, it's not how much i can make in 1 set right and do i train with weight or just do it without weights.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:47 am
by KPj
i'll try to do the 5 reps with heavy weight, i never did it before but i'll try. but isn't this way gonna make me bulky ?!
Kal, I was trying to avoid saying this because i didn't want to confuse matters any further but....

Muscle does NOT slow you down. That's a myth. I'm assuming you know of FOOTBALL players (ok ok soccer!) such as Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos, Edgar Davids, Rino Gattuso - and there are many more extreme examples, just not as well known. Anyway, check the thighs on these guys, if not the upper body as well, especially the shorter guys like that last 2. I'm not sure of your current size, but i'm assuming you've got a lot of mass to gain before you get to the size of these guys. There not bodybuilders, but they're quite big.

The skinny physique in football/soccer is fading, excuse the pun. Also look up some Olympic level 100m sprinters and check the mass. Again, not bodybuilders, but big, and these are the fastest guys in the world.

My point is, i'm sure you've got a long way to go before you need to worry about being too big. if you 'train smart', you will get stronger, a LITTLE bigger, and more explosive with better balance and flexibilty (if you train with your sport in mind anyway). Your not going to tell me that more acceleration, deceleration, better agility, higher and longer jumping distance, more speed, and a little more weight to throw around the park is going to hurt your game, are you?

.....And breathe..... I feel better now :-) sorry for the tone, but i have this debate alot with non believers ;-)

Train with your sport in mind. Follow the advice you get here, look at the workout templates, learn a little. For example, over at t-nation a new article series has just started, 3 parts, and it's geared toward newbies. The first one covers all the terminolgy, different set types, REP RANGES etc. I advise that you have a read, it's a good place to start.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do; ... id=1764218

You will find the same info on this site, your just not walked through it in as much detail.

Why don't you do some reading, check the templates, put together a work out and post, then we can offer more specific advice :-)

good luck

KPj

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:51 am
by Matt Z
All you need to do to maintain is stop adding sets, reps and weight. As long as you stay at the same weight for the same number of sets and reps and the same number of workouts per week you won't get any bigger or stronger. The only problem is that this can become very boring over time, since you're not working towards anything.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:46 pm
by kal
thanx KPj and that's ok ;) good website

what about the abs work out ?!!

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:07 pm
by stuward
I usually do abs as part of my warmup. That with squats, deadlifts and other full body exercises, I think my abs are trained well enough. Once in a while I add weighted situps or leg raises at the end of my workout. I don't see any need for an "Ab workout".