Crossfit's 120

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Onlyethic
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Crossfit's 120

Post by Onlyethic » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:30 pm

I saw one of the Crossfit workouts recently was 30 muscle-ups or, if you can't do that, 120 pullups and 120 dips.

The dips I can imagine, though I doubt I could do them all in one session. But the pullups?!

My questions: how would you get to a point where you can do 120 pullups "for time"?

Is anyone here at that point?

I find that I plateau quickly with pullups. Today for example I did 12-6-6, with dips after each set... pretty pathetic compared with 120. Though I find lifting helps them a lot. Anyways, just curious about this.

thanks and happy thanksgiving!


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Post by stuward » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:42 pm

Keep in mind that the Crossfit pullups are kipping pullups. They use a lot of body english and by design are a whole body movement. Still, 120 is hard and anyone doing 120 pullups can probably do muscle ups once they learn the technique. If you read the comments there were a number of people that posted 120 of each , most were in the 20-30 minute range.

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Post by Matt Z » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:53 pm

Also, it doesn't have to be 120 straight reps without stopping. You're allowed to break it up into as many sets as you need with rest between sets, although admitedly this will add to your time.

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Post by Matt Z » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:03 pm

Keep in mind also that Crossfit is meant to be elite. Often it can be a real challance just to finish one of their workouts, let alone to finish with a good time or score. Meanwhile, because the workouts are so diverse, you're bound to be better at some than you are at others. For example, I can't do a single muscle up or handstand pushup, but did pretty well when I tried the Crossfit Total a little while back.

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:02 am

I always see those subs as a punishment. Can't do 30 muscle ups, eh? Drop and give me 8 reps of these other two exercises for each one you can't do! I especially hate it when it's a sub for me for lack of equipment...I feel like, yeah, I'm sorry my gym doesn't have rings, do I have to do pullups until my arms fall off? Last time one of those came up, it was a squats & muscle-ups workout. I did the 4-1 sub and it crushed me...took forever and I was so knackered afterwards I could barely scrape through BJJ class and I had to do light skill work the next day because I was physically exhausted...so much so I was almost falling down skipping rope for 1 round.

It always seemed odd to me...if I can do 120 dips and 120 pushups, how does that translate into more strength to do muscleups? Seems like if you can do 30 pullups and 30 dips but no muscle ups, you'd be better off doing 30 weighted pullups and 30 weighted dips as a sub to improve your strength, so you can get the power to pull through the sticking point. What weight, I'm not sure, though. It's not the endurance to do 240 reps of pullups and dips you need to get 30 muscle-ups, anymore than doing tons of two-arm pullups will get you a one-arm pullup.

Sorry, bit of a rant. I hate the high-numbers tradeoff subs, it feels like a punishment and not especially contributory to learning the movement you're subbing.

Peter


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Post by Onlyethic » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:24 pm

Matt Z wrote:Also, it doesn't have to be 120 straight reps without stopping. You're allowed to break it up into as many sets as you need with rest between sets, although admitedly this will add to your time.
Still, I could give myself a week to do the 120 and wouldn't get there (though that might make for an interesting experiment). I do pullups pretty regularly, with good form (dead hang) and different grips. But I still don't see much volume improvement, especially in the way of 3 digits worth of reps.

(I of course noticed much better gains in volume when I was lifting.)

Then again, as Peter and others mentioned, does the ability to do 120 pullups really mean anything, where strength is concerned? And, also, is a workout that focuses on 120 pullups and dips worthwhile at the expense of excluding everything else for that day?

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Post by stuward » Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:23 pm

Remember that with Crossfit, the warmup is a big part of the workout. The workout randomly changes each time but the warmup in the continuity that maintains conditioning between workouts.

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:44 pm

The assumption in crossfit is that those are kipping pullups, not 120 dead hangs. You can do more kipping pullups than dead hangs.

I can bang out 120 kipping pullups. I've done "Angie" (100 pullups, 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats), I've done 20 rounds of 5 pullups/10 pushups/15 squats. 120 pullups is doable, but not if I dead-hang them. Your arms get just too tired. With a kip, you're swinging your whole body, so you spread the load more. You still do all the work, but since it's using more of your body you can do more of them. The net effect means you do more overall work, and thus get more of a conditioning effect.

In Crossfit, dead-hangs are dead-hangs, if it just says "pullups" they mean kipping pullups and it's considered proper form.

It's just as I say, though - I don't think doing 4 pullups and 4 dips for every muscle up is a great tradeoff, because I know I can do 120 dips and 120 pullups, but that doesn't mean I can do 30 muscle ups. I've only been able to do muscle-ups on a bar, and then only 2-3 in a row with maximum effort and one arm at a time (push up over the bar with right, then left, not both at the same time like on rings). Next time one of these comes up on a workout day for me, I'm going to do weighed pullups and weighted dips.

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Post by daniel4738 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:09 am

The main 'points' I learnt from crossfit are:

* Compound multi joint lifts.
* Develop Power
* Develop Power endurance


I would describe crossfit as similar to Tudor Bompa's (or is it Bumpa) theory on 'Daily Randomized Periodization'.

You are periodizing your training AND getting the most out of it by doing compound movements.

I am not a big fan of kipping pullups, I dont know why, i just don't like them I can just about manage 28 dead hang pullups (no break), but 120 kipping pullups ... that's pretty damned impressive.

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Post by pdellorto » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:28 am

Well, I can't do 120 in a row. Looking back at my post, it sounds like I'm saying I can do that. No way!

But I can do 120 with breaks if I keep resting every 5-10 reps. The 100 in Angie are tough but I can finish that one by kipping. Same with Cindy. I couldn't do 120 dead hangs in a single workout. I'd be down to singles every 3-4 minutes or so in a very short time, so it would take hours to finish.

My kips, by the way, are not really efficient ones. I chin, and I use a power rack that isn't bolted down and with a bar 2m off the ground (and I'm 193cm). So I have to sort of swing/kick without getting too much momentum or I'll bring the rack down. On a real bar at a real height, I can do a bit better...but the only "real bars" at a "real height" are at my schools, where I've got nothing but the pullup bars so I don't work out there.

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Post by Matt Z » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:47 am

I agree 120 chin-ups and 120 dips is excessive and does little to teach the muscle up. Hopping Muscle-Ups would be better. These could be done on rings or a fixed bar (if available). Then a person could raise the rings progressively higher, or move up to a higher bar as they get closer to a true Muscle-Up

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:53 am

If your gonna do 120 dips or even any exercise you might as well run on a treadmill since thats pretty much a cardio exercise. So I just don't see the benefits of crossfit other than that you can say I did 120 reps in a row or w/e.

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Post by Ironman » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:14 pm

It is metabolic conditioning. It is a lot better than regular cardio. It's good for fat loss, lung capacity, balance, agility and that sort of thing.

I kinda thought WTF at first, until I realized it isn't trying to be strength workout, it is something else.

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Post by ironmaiden708 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:57 pm

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I believe that cardio works all those things you just stated as well.

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Post by Onlyethic » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:23 pm

So, what I'm getting from this is that my starting to work towards muscle ups (which I cannot do one of at this point) is a better use of my time than straining towards more volume of pullups?

Another question: as mentioned, at this point I'm doing about 12 (15 on a good day) pullups for my first set and then decreasing in subsequent sets. At this point, is it more worthwhile to add weight rather than attempt volume (which rarely seems to improve)?

And what about heavily weighted negatives? I.e. Using more weight than I could do 1 pullup with, and just doing negatives?


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