How do I create my own WT workout based on movements?

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How do I create my own WT workout based on movements?

Post by caangelxox » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:24 am

I have a question regarding how to create my own weightraining workout, but first I have a question about something on this site... If you are looking at what muscles are used for an exercise and they have synergists (multijoint exercises do), is the synergist considered as the main muscle being worked as well or no? example - Pull ups main muscle group is Lats and the exercise has tons of synergists (exrx.net site).

Brachialis , Brachioradialis, Biceps Brachii, Teres Major, Rhomboids, Levator Scapulae, Trapezius Lower, Pectoralis Major Sternal, Pectoralis Minor

On the other hand,
My biggest struggle in creating weightraining workouts is seeing all these synergists and deciding what I may be working out too much of or creating muscle inbalances. If I understand how to create weightraining workouts, I will be better off and stick to the schedule instead of not sticking to it because I am worrying so much. I had bad posture and muscle inbalances in the past and I do not want that again. My chiropractor fixed it for me and I have about 2 or 3 more visits to go before I am fine to go every now and then to get regular adjustments and make sure everything stays in place. Don't worry because I do not have scoiliosis. It was just joints that had to be put in the right place. The chiropractor I see knows 104 moves (full body), very experienced (been to a lot of countries to see what other chiropractors do and study, used to work at ucla medical center, and is very honest and also tells you what you should work on to keep good posture, stretch out, and stuff.

Does building a weightraining workout depend on "movements" or muscle groups and synergists? My goal is multijoint exercises and I am athletic, and I play softball and I also play soccer too (coed soccer).

Do people who are following multijoint exercises and not single joint pick exercises regardless of what kind of muscle is the main muscle group and working? Like for example, if there is no exercise that uses a main muscle group like the triceps, biceps, and hamstrings), will that create a muscle inbalance? Are weightraining exercises picked based on movement? I am starting to think movement because trying to do different muscle groups with the synergists and stuff is probably what creates muscle inbalances in the first place?

Are these all the movements needed or are there more? (What I think different movements could be and exercise examples for that movement) (I don't think an olympic lift is really needed unless I am an olympic lifter, which I am not)

- One olympic lift - cable push pull
- One upper body horizontal pull - Inverted Row or Bent Over Row or Seated Row
- One upper body horizontal push - bench press or push up
- One upper body vertical push - dips or shoulder press (I only know of 2)
- One vertical pull - pull ups
- One Quad dominant (I want one bilateral exercise and one 2 legged) - bilateral: one legged squat or lunges; 2 legged: Iron Cross
- One hip dominant - Deadlift

What do I do for the hamstrings?


Oh and the reason why I want a bilateral exercise in my weightraining workout: To me, one legged work is important because I run with one leg (alternating); not 2 legs at once. What if one day I am sprinting and then all of the sudden put too much pressure on one leg too much (made too big of a step or bent over too much), which can cause a broken leg/knee/ankle injury? one legged squats prevent it. This is one exercise I will never take away. Works on balance (ankle), flexibility (trying to go as far down as you can=hamstring), and strength (quads).


Core Training - Flexion, Lateral Flexion, Rotation, Stabilization, Extension (found this from a website and it should be one exercise of each it says). not sure if I really need this or not if above may take care of all these motions?

Flexion - Crunches
Lateral Flexion - Twist Crunches
Rotation - Hip Crossovers
Stabilization - Plank, Side Bridge
Extension - supermans

By the way, is RDL really an olympic lift or no? It is under "power lifting" in the exercise section. RDL is just like stiff legged deadlift animation (I do not see a difference in them). Can I use RDL for hamstring work or are the hamstrings working in any of the exercises movements?

I should of made a post a long time ago on what I have struggled with instead of trying to create any weightraining schedule and then it ending up being useless and I don't stick to it. I hope to hear from you guys soon and finally stop worrying so I can go into the weightroom and do my job without worrying about if I will get muscle inbalances or bad posture like I had a long time ago. I hope what I posted as far as movements being the way to go, know what to do with the hamstrings, and start working out.


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Post by stuward » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:09 am

Welcome back. You must have been up all night on this post.

I'll make an attempt at a couple of point in your post.

Synergists are assisting muscles. While they may not be the main muscle involved they may be the reason for doing an exercise. For example, this exercise works the quads: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Qua ... Sqaut.html
it's probably not as good at that as a front squat but the benefit is in what it does to the adductors. It's known as "preferential recruitment". Note that the adductors are used in squatting but is often a weak spot that needs extra work. This is also a common movement is sports so one you should pay attention to.

Movements are definitely the way to go. Body Builders like to work body parts because they focus on the look. To them, balance is not the same as to someone interested in joint stability and athletic performance.

Next to deadlifts, my favorite hamstring exercise is the RDL. It does look similar to the stiff legged deadlift . There are several similar exercises on this site:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Ere ... dlift.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Ere ... dlift.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Ham ... dlift.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Ham ... dlift.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Oly ... dlift.html
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Glu ... dlift.html

The RDL is not an Olympic lift but is used to train for Olympic lifts.

If you look at the way the back is held it is straight. The legs also bend. It is most similar to the straight back stiff legged lift. Note that in the RDL, there seems to be more attention paid to keeping the back arched and there is more freedom in bending the knees. The RDL is a natural progression to training the clean and also help with deadlift form. It's a very functional and natural movement.

The hamstring crosses the hip and the knee. Leg curls work the hamstring from one end, deadlifts from the other. Both will work. In real life the main purpose of the hamstring is to straighten the hip. Therefore I think it makes more sense to work the hamstring this way as it's a more functional movement. You refer to "hip dominant" exercises immediately before asking about hamstrings. Since the hamstring, with the glutes and lwr back, are the main muscles the straighten the hip, you've got them covered.

I think you are using the word "bilateral" wrong. Bilateral means 2-sided. You probably want to use "uni-lateral" meaning 1 sided. This would include lunges, split squat, step-up, etc.

One way I like to work in the uni-lateral movements is to alternate the days. In one workout I might do squats, the next workout would be lunges, etc. Since the weight is usually lighter on the uni-lateral exercises, you are naturally periodizing your workout for better recovery. You don't have to everything in one workout. Upper body can be trained uni-laterally as well.

I don't understand your reference to the "Iron Cross" as a 2-legged Quad dominant exercise. The term refers to a gymnastic move which is all upperbody. The 2 core lifts in this category are Front Squats and Full Squats. They are similar but the front squat will place the posterior change at a disadvantage so you preferentially recruit your quads. The full squat will use your glutes more and also preferentially recruit your VMO for better knee stability. Expect the weight to be lower on these variations than with a powerlifting style squat but athletically they are more useful.

There was a discussion recently about vertical push. Dips and Overhead press work in different directions and work very different muscle groups.
http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4 ... c&start=15

I hope this helps. I'm sure that others will chime in as daybreak moves west.

Stu

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:55 am

I think she means this Iron Cross:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exercis ... Iron+Cross

Peter

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:13 am

And for what it's worth, I used to try to build by body parts and muscles. I found the push/pull/legs approach people generally advocate here to be a good one. For example, I put my friend on this program:

Workout A
Back Squat 3x5
Shoulder Press 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x5

Workout B
Deadlift 3x5
Weighted Dips 3x5
Weighted Pullups 3x5

Each one is a compound leg exercise (leg and back for the deadlift), followed by a multijoint pushing exercise, followed by a multijoint pulling exercise. It's worked well for him, he's improved a lot. But he's beginning to stall out. He wanted a variation, so I suggested he do that one week, and the next week do this:

Workout A, alternate week
Lunge 3x5 - OR - Single Leg Split Squat 3x5 (pick one)
Standing Dumbbell Press 3x5 (one arm at a time, left then right, don't
rest until after the right side is finished, like this:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Press.html
Dumbbell One-Arm Rows 3x5 (one arm at a time)

Workout B, alternate week
Trap Bar Deadlift 3x5
Dumbbell Bench Press 3x5 (two arms at a time) OR Weighted Pushups
(with feet elevated)
Weighted Wide-Grip Pullups 3x5 (palms facing out, grip wider than
shoulder width)

Again, movement based. He's not missing anything major, and imbalances shouldn't be a problem with the mix of bilateral and unilateral movements. I could change it more, offer a third week, drop those trap bar deadlifts for one-legged deadlifts, whatever. It's trivial, I just need one compound pull, one compound push, one legs.

It's also a much easier template to follow than trying to figure out how to evenly hit all the muscles of the body in an even fashion. You can certainly do that, but you post shows why that's so hard! If you really need to do it that way because of your sport, maybe you should look into a professional sports trainer. One with a good record of strength training for athletes. It won't be cheap, but if you find a good one, he or she might be able to build you a much more specific and detailed program directly suited for your sport!

I hope this helps.

Peter

PS - Here's the best RDL description I ever found, thanks entirely to the guys here:
http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/RL.htm

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Post by caangelxox » Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:15 pm

How about the core training? Is it neccessary to do the 5 torso movements or is that already covered in the weightraining ones?

What is the advantage and disadvantage of lifting weights twice a week compared to 3 times a week? How about how many sets you do? I only go to school Monday-Thursday and after Dec 13th, I will be doing things at home and will not have access to a pull up bar. I have a chin up bar at home, but my dad does not want to put it up in the doorway so I can use it. The only other vertical pull I know of is lat pulldown and we have one upstairs, so I can use that.


If 2 or 3 days a week, it would look something like this... (alternating Workout A and Workout B every week like this upcoming week would be workout A and next week would be workout B) like you explained?


I am thinking of something like this (without the torso training)

3 times a week
Workout A

- upper body horizontal pull - Inverted Row
- upper body horizontal push - Push Ups
- upper body vertical push - dips
- upper body vertical pull - pull ups
- Quad dominant - Iron Cross (its the squat where you just hold the dumbbells out straight in front of you for core stability like you are doing a dumbbell front raise) and One Legged Squat between sets
- hip dominant - Deadlift
- rotation - cable push pull



Workout B
- upper body horizontal pull - Seated Row
- upper body horizontal push - bench press
- upper body vertical push - shoulder press
- upper body vertical pull - pull ups
- Quad dominant (I want one bilateral exercise and one 2 legged) - One Legged Squat and Lunges
- hip dominant - RDL
- Rotation - Cable high and low chops

Fridays and after Dec 13 would be something like Bent Over Row (workout A) and One Arm Row (workout B) in replace of Inverted Row and Seated Row. In replace of Pull ups would have to be Lat Pulldown unless theres another vertical pull exercise around. For rotation can be dumbbell swings (workout A) or high and low chops (workout B) with the dumbbell or medicine ball.

What do you think?


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Post by stuward » Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:48 pm

I think the Iron Cross exercise is just plain silly as a leg exercise. The weight you use is limited by how much weight you can hold up. You should be squating with significant weight in order to progressively overload your legs. If you want to use dumbbells hold them by your sides or hold 1 heavy one in a goblet fashion so your shoulders are not limiting the weight you can do. A barbell is better. If you are going to do the Iron Cross, do it as a cardio move but not as your main leg exercise.

Stu

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Post by stuward » Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:51 pm

You have your obliques and lower back covered well but you do need to do some ab work (flexion) in order to maintain balance between your abs and lower back. You should add something like situps and leg raises as part of your warmup or as a finisher.

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Post by Ryan A » Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:59 pm

One legged squats and lunges are both unilateral. You should do something with your feet next to each other to get bilateral work.

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Post by caangelxox » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:14 pm

stuward wrote:I think the Iron Cross exercise is just plain silly as a leg exercise. The weight you use is limited by how much weight you can hold up. You should be squating with significant weight in order to progressively overload your legs. If you want to use dumbbells hold them by your sides or hold 1 heavy one in a goblet fashion so your shoulders are not limiting the weight you can do. A barbell is better. If you are going to do the Iron Cross, do it as a cardio move but not as your main leg exercise.

Stu
oh okay. thanks. I'll do squats instead.

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Post by caangelxox » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:16 pm

stuward wrote:You have your obliques and lower back covered well but you do need to do some ab work (flexion) in order to maintain balance between your abs and lower back. You should add something like situps and leg raises as part of your warmup or as a finisher.
Yeah, this...

Torso Training 5 movements (found it off of sbccollege website in one of their articles)

Flexion - Crunches
Lateral Flexion - Twist Crunches
Rotation - Hip Crossovers
Stabilization - Plank, Side Bridge
Extension - supermans

For these other than stabilization ones, could any lifting exercises be in replacement for the bodyweight ones? and Speaking of Iron Cross and Overhead Squat, would they both work in one of these categories?

Something like this...

Flexion - Pull Throughs
Lateral Flexion - High/Low band chops (already listed in the workout B section)
Rotation - Hip Crossovers (I know I can add on weight with this)
Extension - Supermans (I know I can add on weight with this as well and do T's, Y's, W's, and L's with dumbbells once I am strong enough)

Are there any other exercises or better ones as far as lifting like for the flexion one? I have tried pull throughs before and I don't like it.

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Post by caangelxox » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:29 pm

Ryan A wrote:One legged squats and lunges are both unilateral. You should do something with your feet next to each other to get bilateral work.
Yeah I have noticed I made a mistake and meant to put unilateral for one legged work. Unilateral is single and bilateral is double. I am planning on doing dumbbell squats as workout A with one legged squat. for workout B it can be just Lunges

another mistake I saw was putting deadlift and squats in the same workout as each other (I heard pros and cons). I should of put Deadlift in workout B with lunges; and put RDL with squats and one legged squat.

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Post by stuward » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:53 am

caangelxox wrote:
stuward wrote:You have your obliques and lower back covered well but you do need to do some ab work (flexion) in order to maintain balance between your abs and lower back. You should add something like situps and leg raises as part of your warmup or as a finisher.
Yeah, this...

Torso Training 5 movements (found it off of sbccollege website in one of their articles)

Flexion - Crunches
Lateral Flexion - Twist Crunches
Rotation - Hip Crossovers
Stabilization - Plank, Side Bridge
Extension - supermans

For these other than stabilization ones, could any lifting exercises be in replacement for the bodyweight ones? and Speaking of Iron Cross and Overhead Squat, would they both work in one of these categories?

Something like this...

Flexion - Pull Throughs
Lateral Flexion - High/Low band chops (already listed in the workout B section)
Rotation - Hip Crossovers (I know I can add on weight with this)
Extension - Supermans (I know I can add on weight with this as well and do T's, Y's, W's, and L's with dumbbells once I am strong enough)

Are there any other exercises or better ones as far as lifting like for the flexion one? I have tried pull throughs before and I don't like it.
Pull throughs are more of a torso extension exercise. Remember that deadlidts and RDLs do this too.

For torso flexion, I mainly do situps and hanging leg raises. The upper part of the leg raise (knees above hips) work the abs the most. Crossfit has an exercise called knees to elbows. You should try that.

Torso stabilization is worked in the squat but doing extra with planks is a good idea. Stability is the most important role the torso plays so anything extra you can put into this, the better.

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Re: How do I create my own WT workout based on movements?

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:50 am

Stu (as always) has provided you with some great information/answers to you questions.

You certainly have a thrist for knowledge in this area. However, your post indicates that you have "analysis paralysis."

Your "... I have struggled with instead of trying to create any weightraining schedule and then it ending up being useless and I don't stick to it. I hope to hear from you guys soon and finally stop worrying so I can go into the weightroom..." your "analysis paralisis" problem.

"Analysis paralysis" means that you second guess your decisions, often chaning your workout program before much progress is made, as you put it "I don't stick to it."

The onstant change in a program happens whenever you read new training information. Your lack of confidence in your judgement then sways you to try the "new" program. However, you then second guess youself and "don't stick to it" opting to try something else.

That pattern of bouncing around form one porgrm to another will continue until you stop second guessing youself. Very little progress is obtained when you bounce around too much and "don't stick with it."

Once that is under control, you worry less, stay on track and make better gains.

In regard to some of you strength questions, let me add to some of Stu's post.

The foundation of all weight training/resistance training programs is built with compound movement such as the squat, bench press, bent over rowing or lat pulldown, as well as some lower back and abdominal work.

These compound/multi jointed movements insure there are no imbalances, all of the synertgistic muscle groups are worked...just about every muscle in the body is worked with these movements.

Strength is the foundation on which power and speed are built. Initially you need to perform basic strength training exercises as those listed above.

Olympic lift/movements are renowed for their ability to increase power. In basic terms, Power = Strength X Speed. Thus, by increasing strength you initially increase power.

So, while you are not an Olympic lifter or aspire to be one, the Olympic movements will increase you power on the playing field. And in the world of sports, Power Rules.

Kenny Croxdale

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Re: How do I create my own WT workout based on movements?

Post by pdellorto » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:09 pm

Kenny Croxdale wrote:That pattern of bouncing around form one porgrm to another will continue until you stop second guessing youself. Very little progress is obtained when you bounce around too much and "don't stick with it."

Once that is under control, you worry less, stay on track and make better gains.
This is a fairly common problem, too. I think that's part of why people use published routines rather than their own - the confidence that comes with saying "This was made by a really smart guy!" and not "I made this up, I hope I did it right..." The most important thing is getting a program and then getting working on it. A slightly flawed program done regularly is more productive than a never-ending series of "perfect" programs you can't stick to.
Kenny Croxdale wrote: So, while you are not an Olympic lifter or aspire to be one, the Olympic movements will increase you power on the playing field. And in the world of sports, Power Rules.
Note that you don't have to learn the relatively technical Olympic lifts to benefit! You can do explosive work like:

- box jumps
- dumbbell swings
- one-arm versions of the snatch and clean
- push press
- thrusters
- sprinting

...all of which will have you moving fast and hard. I don't do Olympic Lifts (no hands-on instruction, no bumper plates, no safe place to ditch weight, no Olympic bars) but I do the exercises list above. You can get lots of explosive power that way too. I know I have - I've watched my strength and power go up because of doing them.

The most important thing, though, is to just do it. If you center a workout around a few major compound exercises your body will get stronger. You'll have less worries about imbalances than if you try to hit each muscle separately or ensure you hit every one by doing lots of different exercises. It's easier to go wrong with a per-muscle split than it is by doing push/pull/legs and a few accessories thrown in for the rotator cuff, abs, grip, etc.

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Post by caangelxox » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:39 pm

Thanks. I'm glad I posted on here to get help and learn about how to create a weightraining workout, so I know that it will be a good workout and I can stick to it without worrying about muscle inbalances and such.

This is my third and hopefully final draft of what I am planning for my weightraining workout. What do you think?

Workout A
* upper body horizontal pull - Seated Row 2x4-6
* upper body horizontal push - Bench press 2x4-6
* upper body vertical push - Dips 2x4-6
* upper body vertical pull - Overhand Pull Ups 2xmax, Underhand Pull Up 2xmax of Overhand Pull Ups
* Quad dominant - Squat 2x4-6
* hip dominant - RDL 2x4-6
* Flexion - Leg Raises 2x10-15
* Lateral Flexion - Diaganal Leg Raises 2x10-15
* Rotation - Hip Crossovers 2x10-15
* Stabilization - Plank 2x1 minute hold & Side Plank 2x30 second hold per side

Workout B
* upper body horizontal pull - Inverted Rows 2x10-15
* upper body horizontal push - Push Ups 2x10-15
* upper body vertical push - Dumbbell Push Press 2x4-8
* upper body vertical pull - Assisted Wide Grip Pull ups 2x4-8, Palms facing each other Pull Up (forgot the name of this one) 2xmax of Overhand Pull Ups
* Quad dominant - Lunges 2x4-6
* hip dominant - Deadlift
* Flexion - Cable Crunches
* Lateral Flexion - Cable High/Low Chops
* Rotation - MB or DB Arms Extended Torso Twist
* Stabilization - Plank 1 minute hold & Side Plank 30 second hold per side


Thinking about...
Upper Body Horizontal Pull and then Upper Horizontal Push will be right after each other to equal one set
Upper Body Vertal Pull and then Upperbody Vertical Push will be right after each other to equal one set
Quad Dominant and then Stabilization Plank will be right after and then One Legged Squat, and then Stabilization Side Plank right after to equal one set
Hip Dominant and then Rotation will be right after each other to equal one set
Flexion and then Lateral Flexion will be right after each other to equal one set

Did I combined the exercises correctly? Between each set is about 2 minute rest and between the 2 pull up variations is 1 minute rest. This should take me less than an hour to do these exercises if I don't talk to anyone and just do my thing.



I will not include olympic lifts until after I get stronger and complete this workout for at least 6 weeks.


By the way, for Fridays and any day I am not at school and when winter break starts (after Dec 13), there are some exercises I cannot do at home, so here are the replacements I know of...

- Bent over Row replaces Inverted Row Workout B
- One Arm Row replaces Seated Row Workout B
- Lat Pulldown replaces Pull Ups (The only other vertical pull I know) Workout A and B
- Crunches replaces Cable Crunches and Twist Crunches replace Cable High/Low Chops Workout B



What do you think of it? and Would it be better if Work out A and workout is alternating everyday (mon/Wed/Fri) or should it alternate every week?

Also for the amount of weight I lift (to make sure I do not get any muscle inbalances here), which movements should I make sure I use the same weight for and which ones does it not matter? Do I use the same weight for Squats, RDL's, and Deadlifts? How about the Horizontal Pulls and Pushes and Vertical Pulls and Pushes? Bench Press and Seated Row or Bent Over Row? Seated Row is machine, so I don't know what weight bench press would be. Like for example if the seated row is 45 pounds being used, what would the Bench Press be?


Oh and, can anyone go read and comment on my seperete stretching thread in this forum? I am waiting for that to be answered on how to create the right stretching routine because there are way too many stretches just like there are way too many exercises. I know for exercises it goes by movements, but I don't know about stretches.


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