How do I create my own WT workout based on movements?

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Kenny Croxdale
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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:57 am

pdellorto wrote:Kenny, I train in a tiny corner of an MMA gym on someone else's equipment.
Peter, I do have some empathy for you situation. However, we all chose how to spend our time, money, etx.
I know I need hands-on training because I've tried to learn exercises and techniques from video and it's just not the same.
Nothing beats hand on. However, can learn from video tapes if one persist. Other have lerned from video tape, why not you?
I don't "need" to drop the weights, but if I drop them due to a missed lift I'm slamming someone else's equipment down in a small space (probably hitting racks, the ring ropes, the kerosene heater, etc. on the way down) and ending up hitting a concrete floor.
As I noted in my previous post, it is very unlikely that you would drop the weight if you perform power cleans, hi pull and power snatches.
Guess what? I do Power Cleans, I do High Pulls. I also do Power Snatches with dumbbells. But I don't do C&Js, full squat cleans, or snatches. Why not? See my "excuses."
So, you are performing some Olympic movement.
Sorry for the rant, but I really hate it when people tell me the valid reasons I have for not doing something are "excuses." Sometimes people have made valid decisions based on their situation and aren't trying to avoid something they don't want to do.
I have no problem with rants. However, what I have a problem with are excuses.

The majority of the time, it isn't that an individual can't do it, it they chose not to do it.

The "can't do it" is more of a "victim" mentality.

A self example is that one of the best Olympic coaches, Mike Burgner, lives about 70 miles from me. Mike has told me that I can come train with him and his lifters for free. However, I have yet to go.

So, what's keeping me from taking Mike up on his offer?

Here is an excuse.

1) I can't afford the gas (about $20 round trip) to drive down there and back I am so poor that I can't afford $20.

2) I don't have the time. Round trip plus training time and taking time to discuss training with Burgner and the other lifters, about 5-6 hours.

I have two days off a week from work. Which take more time for me. Driving down to Burgner's or sitting around watching TV, going to the book store, etc.

Both are going to take 6 hours out of my life no matter what I do...that time will be gone.

Reality

I am not motivated to get off my lasy butt and make it happen. That is the truth of the matter.

As Clint Eastwood once said, "Don't piss down my back and tell me it raining."

Kenny Croxdale


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Post by KPj » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:41 am

I'm on the fence with this Olympic lift debate, but intrigued non the less.

In terms of learning the olympic lifts, I disagree that you can just learn it from a video. This is because i've went all functional over the last year or so and I wouldn't trust anyone, including myself, to do such a complicated movement by watching a video, especially since the majority of gym goers seem to struggle with fractions of the olympic lifts (DL, Squat, namely), never mind the real thing.

My strongest reason though is compensation patterns. I strongly believe now that you need someone to look for compensation patterns when your lifting. You could always take a video of yourself and watch it, but then you need to know what to look for.... As i said, i've went all functional recently!

I have read and also agree that olympic lifting is a sport in itself, and takes a whole lot of coaching to get it right. So unless your goal is to get strong on the OL, then there are quicker, more straight forward methods you can use to achieve your goal...

As for power output, i'm hesitant to comment because i have no 'data' to provide and to be honest. I get most of my info from training articles, books or manuals.

The strength, speed, and power thing interests me and admittedly i've got a lot to learn on this...

But I don't get how Olympic lifts produce more power. More so, I don't get how you compare them...

Take the clean and jerk, and the dead lift. If you 'zone in' on the deadlift part of C & J, then compare it to a DL, then surely, with the same athlete, they could produce the same power on this part of the C & J compared with just a DL, if they DL the same as they C &J, and lift as fast as they can. Then if you take the whole movement of the C & J for 1RM compared to a DL 1RM... With C & J, you have a greater distance, and a greater 'bar speed' ? during most of the movement anyway? i'm not sure about time...

Then the 1RM DL, you have less distance, slower bar speed, but much more weight...

But then again, a power lifter will be better at power lifting than an olympic lifter, and vice versa AKA adaptation....

I'm thinking out loud but I think my point is..


How can you accurately compare power outputs between completely different sports? I know Powerlifting wasn't mentioned, but 'other explosive training' is... power lifters commonly use 'explosive' training to help their strength, hence the comparison.

Apologies if i've went way off the mark with the power thing, but I couldn't help myself.

KPj

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Post by TimD » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:55 am

Just a few comments on OL movements. It is true that not all trainer's recommend them., meaning the full lifts, however, from what I've read, most have this to say about them. There is no real need to develop the technique required for the classical lifts (sn and c and j) if the athlete does not intend or want to compete in the sport, however, it would do any athlete well to add the power versions and or the strength variations of the lifts: i.e. power cleans, snatches, pulls off the floor with varying grips, push presses/jerks out of the rack. Some of these, in addition to what PDell listed should be a pretty decent combination.
One last comment on dropping the bar. Yes, it MAY happen, but with the exercises above vice the classical lifts, the bar can be controlled. When I first started out in the 60's, coach wouldn't let us intentionally drop the bar. A miss was a miss and we were taught how to bail. Further, there weren't a lot of bumpers floating around in those days. If you can put a deadlift back down on the ground, you can surely put a snatch or clean down. The late JV Askem even wrote a piece on it. Don't have it bookmarked, it's over in the notebook over at Old School someplace.
Tim

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Post by stuward » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:14 pm

This site is interesting: http://www.performancemenu.com/resource ... Output.php

You can enter an exercise and how long you take to complete it and will give your power output.

My opinion:

Thrusters are a favorite Crossfit exercise because they are easy to learn and generate a lot of power. They are basically a front squat to a push press, both derived from olympic lifts. The classic Olympic lifts may be too difficult for the average person to learn but many of their derivitives are relatively easy to learn and provide most of the benifits. I do power cleans, hi pulls, dumbbell swings and snatches, thrusters, push presses, etc. I play around with C&J and snatches but they are far from the real thing. I will never compete and I'm not into sports but I think that maintaining the capability to generate power is incredibly important as one ages and learning new skills is also very important. In my mind doing this type of exercise is as important as conventional strength training.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:05 pm

In terms of learning the olympic lifts, I disagree that you can just learn it from a video.
If so, then all of the Olympic lifting video are worthless and a bit of a scam. That same would appy ot training books, as well...would that it be.

Certainly, hand on is the best. However, videos provide those who endeavor a some great instruction.

Harvey Newton does an excellent job of breaking Olympic movement down into "bit size" pieces. Since you have not view the video, you would not know that.
This is because i've went all functional over the last year or so and I wouldn't trust anyone, including myself, to do such a complicated movement by watching a video,
Let me reiterate, Newton breaks the movement down into "bit size" pieces that you CAN perform. You slowly beging to put it together.

The problem with the majority of individuals is the "I can't do" attitude. They come up with a multitude of excuses.
especially since the majority of gym goers seem to struggle with fractions of the olympic lifts (DL, Squat, namely), never mind the real thing
.

The majority of gym goers struggle with just about everything. The are clueless about just about everything. They show up and wonder around in a maze for an hour or two.
My strongest reason though is compensation patterns. I strongly believe now that you need someone to look for compensation patterns when your lifting. You could always take a video of yourself and watch it, but then you need to know what to look for.... As i said, i've went all functional recently!
Video taping yourself would allow you to see what you are doing right and wrong.
I have read and also agree that olympic lifting is a sport in itself, and takes a whole lot of coaching to get it right.
You become fairly efficient within a short period of time with a good coach. Utilizing a video take a bit longer but you can still learn enough to perform the lifts well in a short period of time.

These movement would be power cleans and hi pulls. Power snatches wuld take a bit longer. However, once you learn the power clean and hi pull, the power snatch isn't that hard.
So unless your goal is to get strong on the OL, then there are quicker, more straight forward methods you can use to achieve your goal.
If you goal is to develop power, the Olympic movement are a much betteer vehicle. While othet exercise will help you increase power, they are subpar movements.

As an example. Dr John Garhammer's reseaarch shows that Olympic movement produce close to twice as much power as a squat, with what ever load you chose.

So, while squats with light to moderate loads will increase power, they don't allow you to develop or produce as much power as the Olympic movements.

So yes, some power training is better than nothing.

But I don't get how Olympic lifts produce more power. More so, I don't get how you compare them...

Again, Garhammer's research shows that the "Olympic lifts produce more power." Read the article that I listed on this.
Take the clean and jerk, and the dead lift. If you 'zone in' on the deadlift part of C & J, then compare it to a DL, then surely, with the same athlete, they could produce the same power on this part of the C & J compared with just a DL, if they DL the same as they C &J, and lift as fast as they can. Then if you take the whole movement of the C & J for 1RM compared to a DL 1RM... With C & J, you have a greater distance, and a greater 'bar speed' ? during most of the movement anyway? i'm not sure about time...
Here is some of the researh on power outputs.

"During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women

Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men

With this basic breakdown in mind, the power output comparisons of a
100-kilo male lifter in the clean, second pull and deadlift would be as follows.

Clean-------------3430 watts
Second Pull------5260 watts
Deadlift----------1200 watts"

That means that a clean produces 2.85 times more power!
How can you accurately compare power outputs between completely different sports? I know Powerlifting wasn't mentioned, but 'other explosive training' is... power lifters commonly use 'explosive' training to help their strength, hence the comparison.
Again, read the article listed. View the clip on ESPN's Sport Science. PhD accurate mearue and compar power ouputs betwen completely different sport all the time.

Once mre, read the article listed regarding power ouput of powerlfiters and Olympic lifters.

I listed the comparison of the clean vs the deadlift up above. The deadlift as well as the squat are not in the same galexy as the Olympic movements.

Dr John Garhammer has about an 11 page research (NSCA Resarch Journal) paper on his comparison of the powerlifts vs the Olympic lifts. There is also an audio tape of him presenting this information at the NSCA National Conference.

KPj, the information is out that...don't take my word for it...read it, yourself.

Kenny Croxdale


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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:22 pm

stuward wrote:This site is interesting: http://www.performancemenu.com/resource ... Output.php

You can enter an exercise and how long you take to complete it and will give your power output.
This is interesting, but a poor method of determing power output. As we know, power output is determined by acceleration (speed) as well as the mass (weight).

This formual does not allow one to determine how fast an athlete is moving the load.

A device that would provide a better, somewhat accurate, measurement of power output is the "Power Factor." http://liftinglarge.com/power_factor_we ... g_comp.htm

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Post by TimD » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:26 pm

I'm not getting into the power equivalents, but would like to make a comment here on video's and learning the lifts. A lot of us were self taught back in the day, using the splt method. Yeah, we formed some bad habits. Enter a coachthat actually knew something, and it was MUCH easier to teach us, mostly because we were already 3/4 there.
Video's, go to crossfit and look up Coach Burgener's video's on the OL's. He makes a point of breaking things up into little bits, then has you practice the parts run together. especially the transition and scoop into the jump. Good stuff. His Daughter, who demo's a lt of the stuff is pretty cool too. Makes me feel real wimpy with this cute little thing throwing around some really heavy metal. Also, the idea of having someone video you is excellent. You can critiqueyourself vs the training video's.
The point being, here, is don't be afraid of trying to learn them on your own.
Tim

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:17 pm

Kenny, I've already addressed your points in my earlier post. I've made my choices. My choices have made some things easier (i.e. learning Japanese is easier, learning MMA is easier) but others harder (learning Olympic Lifts is harder, finding shoes my size is impossible outside of Tokyo). You can call them excuses, I call them reasons. I don't think there is a lot of value in discussing it further.

With learning the Olympic Lifts, though: The learning curve on the lifts is clearly higher than other power exercises. Learning a dumbbell snatch is much easier than learning a barbell snatch. Learning a thruster is easier than learning a clean and jerk. Learning to box jump is easier than learning to explode upwards on a lift of any kind. And so on. You get less power on a lift-for-lift, rep-for-rep basis. Those power output numbers are very convincing, but I'll say that they imply a properly done lift...and doing the Clean & Jerk takes more practice and training to do it properly.
The question is, in terms of learning efficiency, is it:

- worth starting out with simpler power exercises and incorporating them immediately (thus getting the benefits of power training right off the bat?) while moving to the Olympic lifts later?
- worth going right to Olympic lifts and their progressions, skipping the other power exercises?
- worth skipping the Olympic lifts entirely and focusing on power-training of other kinds (explosive/DE lifting, jumping, sprinting, etc.)?

I know at least one trainer who doesn't value the Olympic Lifts - Joe DeFranco in NJ has this article (scroll down to Myth #4)
http://www.defrancostraining.com/articl ... -myths.htm
He's clearly training explosive athletes (pro players and pro-players in the making). He's not the only opinion, of course, as lots of other folks can point out the great power and athleticism of Olympic lifters. The question really comes down to situational efficiency - when is it worth training those lifts?

For me, my decision is that based on availability of equipment, time, and coaching (i.e. not much of any of them), it was better for me to learn other power exercises correctly and quickly and get right to training them than to take the longer path of Olympic Lifting. Is there a downside to the other power exercises instead, or learning partial progressions (hang power clean, high pull but not jerks and snatches and full cleans)?

Peter

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Post by pdellorto » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:32 pm

caangelxox wrote:oh I heard that lacid acid is a good thing and that means the muscles are adapting, working, and getting stronger. I even asked my biology teacher and other PE teachers and they say the same thing.
stuward has answered this already. The current theory is that it is microscopic muscle tears, not lactic acid buildup, that causes DOMS. You can check wikipedia on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_on ... e_soreness
That seems to match what I've found elsewhere.

But the point is that you can get stronger without soreness. I wish I could pin down the sources, but I know I've read discussions of people doing concentric-only deadlifts (lift, drop, lift, drop, not lift, lower, lift, lower), dropping the weights on Olympic lifts, and other work that doesn't have a significant eccentric element. They report a much lower incidence of DOMS. Of course, that's contrasted with the evidence that eccentric work is where you cause the most stress and thus get the most adaptation (stronger muscles)...I don't know how settled the consensus is on this.

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Post by Ryan A » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:36 am

Just to comment on the power output thing...

If they have your dimensions (distance) and the duration (time) that lets you calculate velocity or speed (which is vastly different from acceleration and since you know the weight used you also have force.

That allows you to calculate power via power= force * velocity

or thought of another way, you know how much work was done since you know force * distance and so now to get power you can do
power= work/time

another way you can calculate this would be via energy conservation, since the potential energy the weight achieves in a position is U=mass*acceleration_due_to_gravity and since the potential energy equal to the work that took to get it there, then you have work again and can get power as in the second example above.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:52 am

A lot of us were self taught back in the day, using the splt method. Yeah, we formed some bad habits. Enter a coachthat actually knew something, and it was MUCH easier to teach us, mostly because we were already 3/4 there.
Great point.
Video's, go to crossfit and look up Coach Burgener's video's on the OL's. He makes a point of breaking things up into little bits, then has you practice the parts run together.
I took Burgner's Club Coach Olympic Lifting Certification class a few years ago for my Contiinueing Education Units.

While educational, the course is for those who never have performed an Olympic movement.

My problem with the class was that I was more more of an intermediate with beginners. That because I was pretty much self taught.

It's like being in the 5th grade and sent back to the first grade...you don't learn much.

I was way ahead of the majority of those in the class because I had invested the time in learning the lifts on my own.

The point being is that self education works for those who get off their ass and do it.

Here my personal guarantee that appears at the bottom of all my post, "I guarantee it will never work if you never try it."
The point being, here, is don't be afraid of trying to learn them on your own.
Excellent thought. No one got anywhere by sitting on their ass and not trying.

Tell me what you can do, not what you can't do. Can't do people don't go too far.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:32 am

I know I've read discussions of people doing concentric-only deadlifts (lift, drop, lift, drop, not lift, lower, lift, lower), dropping the weights on Olympic lifts, and other work that doesn't have a significant eccentric element. They report a much lower incidence of DOMS.
DOMS can be eliminated or minmized with eccentric movements.

Lifters usually start off with too much weight. If you start off using too much weigh in a new concentric exercise...you get DOMS as well.

So, the first rule is start off all eccentric movements with a light load. Let your body adapt to the new movement.

You body will adapt. Whatevery sorness, if any was there the first week of training, won't be there the second or third week of training, as long as you progressively increase the load and don't go crazy.
Of course, that's contrasted with the evidence that eccentric work is where you cause the most stress and thus get the most adaptation (stronger muscles)...I don't know how settled the consensus is on this.
Would you buy a car with no brakes or bad brakes? How would you make a turn or stop from hitting someone if you had no brakes or you bad brakes?

There are two good research articles on high jumpers. The research shows the great jumpers have esceptional eccentric strength.

These jumper area able to stop faster right before take off and transition that momentum upward. Poor jumper's lacked eccentric strength.

Dr Tom McLaughlin's research showed the same with the bench press. The great bench pressers possessed exceptional eccentric strenght. They were able to minimize the downward force of the bar and drive up more weight.

That is what eccentric strength is...it is your brakes. Just about every sport and movement you make requires that you have good brakes...eccentric strength. So, why not perform some specific eccentric strength training?

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:55 am

I know at least one trainer who doesn't value the Olympic Lifts - Joe DeFranco in NJ has this article (scroll down to Myth #4)
http://www.defrancostraining.com/articl ... -myths.htm
He's clearly training explosive athletes (pro players and pro-players in the making). He's not the only opinion, of course, as lots of other folks can point out the great power and athleticism of Olympic lifters. The question really comes down to situational efficiency - when is it worth training those lifts?
I realized some strength coaches do on use the Olmpic lifts...and they are missing the boat in some some ways.

However, before moving on, let me once more ask this question. I have failed get an answer on it yet. What exercise/movements produce the same power outputs as the Olympic movement?

The exercises/movemements that elicit the same power outputs would work. Which takes us back to the question of, "What are they?"
Is there a downside to the other power exercises instead, or learning partial progressions (hang power clean, high pull but not jerks and snatches and full cleans)?
The Olmpic movement are just a better choise over the "other power exercises." However, you work the best with what you got and the time you have to do it...which sound like what you are doing.

Kenny Croxdale


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Post by KPj » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:56 pm

ok, I accept the power output thing. Never understood it before but do now. As soon as I saw that OLifting created more power, I wanted to jump on the power lifting wagon and say "hey! thats not right...etc etc etc" but now I realise that 'Power' isn't my goal, despite the name of 'power lifting' - strength is what i'm after. Obviously, incorporating some of the OL principles into that goal will help, but at the end of the day, I just want to lift heavy things - not that i'm trying to take away from OLifting, not at all, just preference.
Would you buy a car with no brakes or bad brakes?
Would you learn to drive without the use of an instructor? Or just watch someone drive and then dive in and have a go yourself?

OK, bad example, 'coz that would be illegal. I'm just nitpicking...
If so, then all of the Olympic lifting video are worthless and a bit of a scam. That same would appy ot training books, as well...would that it be.
You could say this about anything; brain surgeons, engineers, pilots - i'm sure allot these guys could learn themselves, just by watching videos, but thats not how it's done, for obvious reasons. And i'm sure the books, videos etc aren't all a waste of time for any of these skills... I'm sure they provided a great foundation of knowledge, and later on in life, provide a great reference point. Or maybe they want to expand on skills they already have.

As I said in my last post, i've went functional. In other words, i'm biased in this debate. I can accept that some people can pick these things up themselves just by watching and doing them, i just think it's dangerous. When your body over compensates, it feels natural... And as I said, to look at videos of yourself you need to know what to look for.

At the same time, i have a strong belief that most people starting out in the lifting world, regardless of their goals would benefit from a chronic injury. As stupid as it sounds, it's the only way people realise what they're doing to themselves, that 25 sets of 8 on there chest on chest day is a tad too much. And yes, you do have a back, and legs, and no, the squat rack isn't for curls (had to get that one in). Most people who 'know better' have normally learned through hands on experience of correcting problems from making stupid mistakes in the first place.
I realized some strength coaches do on use the Olmpic lifts...and they are missing the boat in some some ways.

However, before moving on, let me once more ask this question. I have failed get an answer on it yet. What exercise/movements produce the same power outputs as the Olympic movement?
Unless your sport is Olympic Lifting... who cares? ;-)

But I believe the answer your looking for is, "no exercise or movement produce the same power output as olympic movements"


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Post by caangelxox » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:53 pm

olympic movements are all explosive. Its a mixture of a few exercises put all into one. For example the power clean: deadlift to jump shrug and then to upright row, and then to front squat (bar on chest)


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