How do I create my own WT workout based on movements?

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, parth, stuward, jethrof

Kenny Croxdale
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:20 pm

KPj wrote:ok, I accept the power output thing. Never understood it before but do now. As soon as I saw that OLifting created more power, I wanted to jump on the power lifting wagon and say "hey! thats not right...etc etc etc" but now I realise that 'Power' isn't my goal, despite the name of 'power lifting' - strength is what i'm after. Obviously, incorporating some of the OL principles into that goal will help, but at the end of the day, I just want to lift heavy things - not that i'm trying to take away from OLifting, not at all, just preference.
Kpj,

Being a powerlifter, I can relate to "lifting heavy things." That is my goal for each meet.

However by increasing your power, you increase you limit strength...meaning you can lift even "heavier things." Louie Simmons Westside Method have proven that.

With that said, the foundation of power and speed are built on strength. Thus, the first thing you need to do to increase your power or speed it to increase your strength.

Increasing your strength works up to a point. If an athelte continues to only train with heavy weight and slow speed, their power and speed diminish.

So, their si some truth to the old addage of the coaches in the 1960s lifting weights will make you muscle bound and slow.

The poster children for strength and power are Olympic lifters. These athletes possess enormous strength and power. It is due to their training methods.

Olympic lifter's perform concurrtent strength training...meaning they train wiith heavy weigth to develop strength and moderate weight moved as fast as the can.

The end result is that Olympic lifters exhibit the greatest displays of power output and strength in the sports.

So, performing some power exercise will increase you ability to "lift heavy things" and including strength movements will increase your power output.
Would you buy a car with no brakes or bad brakes?
Would you learn to drive without the use of an instructor? Or just watch someone drive and then dive in and have a go yourself?
Obviously, having an instructor is preferred. However, let's say you have a car but don't know how to drive it. You have to walk to work, which is 10 mile away. Your a can walk 4 miles a hour. Which means you are it will take you about 2.5 hours to get to work and another 2.5 hours to get home...a total of 5 hours a day commute time to work and back.

Conversely, driving the car to work will get you there in 20 minutes. Your average is 30 mph...you have to stop at lights, there is traffic, etc.

Would you invest you time in learning to drive a car via watching a video and reading or continue to walk to work?

As Tim noted, self education works. Abraham Lincoln is an example of that.
If so, then all of the Olympic lifting video are worthless and a bit of a scam. That same would appy ot training books, as well...would that it be.
You could say this about anything; brain surgeons, engineers, pilots - i'm sure allot these guys could learn themselves,
Let take a look a medicine. When God created the earth, he didn't create medical universitites so we could learn to brain surgery or to heal others.

Initally, medical doctors learned by experimenting on others. Medicine evolved and continues to with experimentation. Thus, the foundation of what we now know was built in many ways on self education.

The same holds true for engineers, pilots and other fields. Every field needs lab rats in which scientist test their theories and learn...this is self education.
As I said in my last post, i've went functional.
Everytime I hear the term "functional," I want to puke. It is abused, over used and misunderstood. Learning to squat is "functional" in that you learn how to get down to the potty or a chair and get up, etc.

So, the majority of strength training movement are "fucntional." Standing on a ball and doing curls is NOT functional. There are few instances in which anyone would perform that mvoement...see my post on "BOSU Balls, a waste to fime." Even Irorman signed off on it.
In other words, i'm biased in this debate.
Your bias appear to be from a bad experience. Your message seems to be, try it and if it does't work, give up.

I understand your frustration. That occurs with everyone in every field of endeavor.

However, success with everything requires pesistance. Research by Dr Richard Wiseman (physiocologist/University of Herfordschire/England) shows that successful individuals fail many time before they get to their destination.

What seperates the successful individual form those that fail, is that the successful individual won't give up.

Think about this. You can be wrong 30% of them time and make about #2.000,000 a year. That is approximately the salry of major league of baseball players batting .300.

For only hitting the ball and getting on base 30% of the time will make you a millionaire. Understandably some genetics is require...but a ton of practice need to take place, as well.
I can accept that some people can pick these things up themselves just by watching and doing them, i just think it's dangerous. When your body over compensates, it feels natural... And as I said, to look at videos of yourself you need to know what to look for.
There is a risk factor with everything we do. I would venture to guess that you are probably more at risk driving around in your car than learning some Olmpic movements.

Secondly, Harvey Newton's does a great job of breaking down the Olymipic movments into "bit size pieces," so that you can lean with a minimal amout of risk...the benefits far out weight the risk.
At the same time, i have a strong belief that most people starting out in the lifting world, regardless of their goals would benefit from a chronic injury. As stupid as it sounds, it's the only way people realise what they're doing to themselves, that 25 sets of 8 on there chest on chest day is a tad too much. And yes, you do have a back, and legs, and no, the squat rack isn't for curls (had to get that one in). Most people who 'know better' have normally learned through hands on experience of correcting problems from making stupid mistakes in the first place.
Most people starting out are clueless. I was. The Sear set of weight that I got came with a small book on weight training. It showed the exercises, that was it.

I use the same weight training exercises everyday and gradually became weaker, from overtraining. No one was around to teach me. I ended up buying books and learning. Then I found others to train with and learned.

I continue to learn by experimentation and from others. I consider myself an expert in all the thing you SHOULD NOT do.

My philosophy is that "It better to fall on your face going for the ball than to fall back on your butt waiting for the ball to come to you." Billy Martin/Baseball.

I am not the only one on this board with those credentials. Tim, stuward, Ironman and other have experience with this. Their post are based on what they've learned in the world of "hard knocks" as well as through the academinc world of study.

This board is about discussion and debate. It is also about sharing with other what we have learned, so that other don't make the same mistakes.
But I believe the answer your looking for is, "no exercise or movement produce the same power output as olympic movements"
Some movements/exercise will provide the same power outputs as the Olympic movements...the question is which one do that.

As an example, research by Dr Mike Stone has shown that the power output of throwing the shot putt is basically the same as the Olympic movements.

Stone's research shows that loads of 70-80% of a max in the Olympic movement best develops power. Olympic movement are ballistic, meaning that a body or object becomes airborne. That occus with Olympic movement since the athlete is jumping with the weight.

Balistic movement develop power throughout the entire range of the movement.

Power is developed in squat jumps and bench press throws with loads of 10-40% of a max, with about 30% of max producing the best power outputs. However, the power output does not compare to the Olympic movements.

Power is best developed in squats, bench press, etc with loads that are about 40-60% of max. However, power is developed in a very small range of the movement because part of the movement is devoted to slowing the bar down before lockout...otherwise a whiplash effect would occur.

Kenny Croxdale


Kenny Croxdale
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:22 pm

caangelxox wrote:olympic movements are all explosive. Its a mixture of a few exercises put all into one. For example the power clean: deadlift to jump shrug and then to upright row, and then to front squat (bar on chest)
LOL...That is a great way of looking at it.

Kenny Croxdale

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:36 pm

Ca'ang and kenny. that progression WAS the US model up until the late 60's. That's about the time the clean and press got thrown out (for various reasons) and the emphasis shifted from Power cleaning the weight and upper body to push. The emphasis for then became leg and back pulling power to get the bar as high as possible without consciously rowing the bar. It became "get down under the bar as fast as possible". Most coaches now , along w/the US model teach the full clean or snatch first, and after good habits have been developed, then the power versions. However, for the non-competing, the DL to upright row, or high pull, still is a VERY powerfull drill and model.
Tim

Kenny Croxdale
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:21 pm

to get the bar as high as possible without consciously rowing the bar. It became "get down under the bar as fast as possible".
Great point. That was one of the points I got from Mike Burgner's USA Weightlifting Club Coach class. As I remember, you've addressed this before, Tim.

As per Burgner, you want to pull the bar as high as you can. Once you do that, you then drop while pulling on the bar as a means of getting underneath the bar before it drops.
Most coaches now , along w/the US model teach the full clean or snatch first, and after good habits have been developed, then the power versions. However, for the non-competing, the DL to upright row, or high pull, still is a VERY powerfull drill and model.
Burgner teaches the movement from top down, instead of bottom up.

One book that I read that agrees with the top down philosophy is "Don't Shoot The Dog." It a great book on not only dog training but how to train athletes as well.

The emphasis of the book is the use of positive reward as a means of eliciting the correct response from dogs, as well as people.

There is a basic "10 Commandments" list of how to do this.

Ironically, number 10 on the list is when all else fails...SHOOT THE DOG.

The thought behind Shooting the Dog is that when all of the positive method have failed...use a negative method.

As an example, if a baseball player keeps missing catching the ball even with positive methods...have them run laps every time they miss catching the ball.

My mother used a similar approach but some saddistic one with me as a child. I had a foul mouth. She cautioned me several times about not cussing.

One day, her patients had run out. She washed my mouth out with soap.

I believe her doing so was a bit over the edge but it certainly cured the problem. I NEVER cussed around her again. lol.

Kenny Croxdale

caangelxox
Member
Member
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Post by caangelxox » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:08 pm

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
caangelxox wrote:olympic movements are all explosive. Its a mixture of a few exercises put all into one. For example the power clean: deadlift to jump shrug and then to upright row, and then to front squat (bar on chest)
LOL...That is a great way of looking at it.

Kenny Croxdale
Yeah =)

In my workout B routine for upper body vertical push, I changed push press to squat to press (squat into bicep curl, into shoulder press). I could also include an upright row before shoulder press if I want.


There are so many exercises that you can mix together and make it explosive.


By the way, I had a problem with my workout B routine with doing inverted rows, push ups, and also pull ups together all in one session. I got kind of fatique during the wide grip pull up (assisted). and my biceps became sore the next day and still are today (this is from wednesdays workout). Maybe this was from being tired from the workout A routine on monday or something.

I have a question. all 4 pull up variations, do they all work the same exact muscles or a little different on each variation? I am thinking of just doing underhand and overhand pull ups and forget about the wide grip ones and palms facing each other one? Also are there any other upper body vertical pull exercises other than pull ups and lat pulldown?


User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:24 pm

caangelxox wrote:I have a question. all 4 pull up variations, do they all work the same exact muscles or a little different on each variation? I am thinking of just doing underhand and overhand pull ups and forget about the wide grip ones and palms facing each other one?
Wide grip pull ups uses the shoulder adduction articulation, while shoulder width pull ups (regardless of grip) uses the shoulder extension articulation. Adduction and extension use the same back muscles, but in the case of adduction, the rear deltoid is removed as a synergist.

As for the elbow flexors, pull ups with a pronated (overhand) grip is brachialis dominant, pull ups with a supinated (underhand) grip is biceps dominant, and pull ups with a neutral (palms facing) grip is brachioradius dominant. To fully develop the elbow flexors, you should do pull ups with all three grips.

caangelxox
Member
Member
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Post by caangelxox » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:37 am

oh okay,
The one with the palms/wrists facing each other is not needed then? Just the wide grip, overhand grip, and underhand grip all I need to do? and do you know why I cannot do a wide grip pull up with bodyweight like I can with overhand and underhand? Does that mean there is a muscle inbalance somewhere or something?

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:54 am

caangelxox wrote:oh okay,
The one with the palms/wrists facing each other is not needed then? Just the wide grip, overhand grip, and underhand grip all I need to do?
Where did you see that? Training elbow flexion with a neutral grip is just as important as training with pronated and supinated grips. It does a better job of recruiting the forearm muscles than the other two - like doing hammer curls.
caangelxox wrote:and do you know why I cannot do a wide grip pull up with bodyweight like I can with overhand and underhand? Does that mean there is a muscle inbalance somewhere or something?
Shoulder adduction is a weaker articulation than shoulder extension for nearly everyone. Few people can do as many wide grip pull ups as they can do close grip pull ups.

caangelxox
Member
Member
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Post by caangelxox » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:17 pm

oh okay so I should leave all 4 in then.

*Shoulder adduction is a weaker articulation than shoulder extension

oh okay, so if my shoulder adduction is weaker than shoulder extension, should I lay off doing the shoulder extension and work on shoulder adduction until the balance is up?

When I am at home, what exercises can I do in replacement of pull ups (other than lat pulldowns because I don't really like that machine)? I am trying to figure it out.

for upper body horizontal pull, I did find out a way to do inverted rows at home by the way. When I was on a site looking for flexibility information, I came across inverted rows by putting the barbell you have at home on the top of 2 chairs like its a rack, and thats how I can do them at home. If any of you guys want to do inverted rows, you can do it at home if you have a barbell and 2 even chairs. Inverted Rows are just the opposite of Push Ups. I know some people that always bench press, but never can do one inverted Row. Same thing with One Legged Squat and the Regular Squat.

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Stephen Johnson » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:54 pm

caangelxox wrote:oh okay, so if my shoulder adduction is weaker than shoulder extension, should I lay off doing the shoulder extension and work on shoulder adduction until the balance is up?
It's not just your shoulder adduction that is weaker than your shoulder extension - it's almost everyones. For most people, the pulling angle is less favorable and you don't use the rear deltoids as synergists when you perform shoulder adduction.

You should include exercises for all ten shoulder articulations, but you shouldn't expect them all to be equal force producers. They aren't. If you rarely perform wide grip pull ups or pull downs, add more of them in your routine.. But don't omit the extensions.

caangelxox
Member
Member
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:08 pm

Post by caangelxox » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:18 pm

oh okay.

I am still waiting to get an answer to my q about pull ups. Is lat pulldowns the only replacement for pull ups? The only grips I can do with a lat pulldown machine is underhand grip, overhand grip, and wide grip. I have no idea how I can do neutral grip on the lat pulldown machine though. (my parents have one, so I can use that in replacement of pull ups because I think thats the only replacement there is for that movement vertical pull)

For the http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html , don't all the movements (upper body horizontal push/pull, vertical push/pull) take care of all those movements on that page except for a few of them that we all usually perform ourselves?

Let me know if I got this right based on the exercises I am currently doing and know. I am trying to understand how the body works and the movements of each muscle. Its good to learn and understand it all to prevent injury and make sure muscles are balanced. I am trying to understand based on movements.


Flexion - Front Raises/Flexion with band (back facing band)
Extension - Extension with Band (facing band) and maybe Dips?
Adduction - Pull Ups/Lat Pulldown
Abduction - Lateral Raises
Transverse Adduction - maybe Dips here instead?
Transverse Flexion - Dumbbell Fly
Transverse Abduction - Bent Over Row/Seated Row/Inverted Row
Transverse Extension - Bench Press/Push Up
Medial Rotation (Internal Rotation) - can be done lying on floor with DB or standing up/sit with elbow to side of body with band
Lateral Rotation (External Rotation) - can be done lying on floor with DB or standing up/sit with elbow to side of body with band


I am not sure about the Transverse Adduction and where the Dips belong? I wish they showed dumbbell examples or band examples instead of machines on most of these. Machines are not very good because no stabilizers and only works one muscle only. Everything I put is correct right?


On the Articulations site, there is also the spine one, which is important for the core http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Spine ... chor164498 I don't know why the neck exercises above it is there because no one does exercises for the neck (just stretches).

Flexion - Leg Raises or crunches
Extension - Deadlifts or Hyperextensions (on ball or on hyperextension machine. Doing it on a bench is uncomfortable)
Abduction - Cable Low Chops or Woodchops with DB or Plate or MB
Adduction - Cable High Chops or Woodchops with DB or Plate or MB
Rotation - Oblique Twist/Hip Crossovers
Stability - Planks, Side Planks, etc. (not listed on site, but I know its important)

Hips http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Hip.html

Flexion - crunches or leg raises
Extension - RDL or stiff legged deadlift, deadlift, squat
Adduction - Laying Leg Raises for the Inner Thigh
Abduction - Leg Raises for Hip
Transverse Adduction - the exercise where you are on all 4's with bent knees and lifting leg inward toward tummy
Transverse Abduction - same exercise as above, but lifting it like a male dog is peeing
Medial Rotation (Internal Rotation) - Laying Leg Raises for the Inner Thigh
Lateral Rotation (External Rotation) - Leg Raises for Hip

There are no pictures for internal/external rotation, but I think I know this movement because of the rotator cuff ones. Am I right? I know those belong in the abduction/adduction area.


Elbow http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Elbow.html
Flexion - Bicep Curl
Extension - Overhead Tricep Extension

Forearms/Wrists
Extension - Forearm Curls
Flexion - Wrist Curls
Pronation/Supination - Wrist Turns

Knee http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Knee.html
Flexion - Hamstring Curl
Extension - Quad Curl
Medial Rotation (Internal Rotation): ? no picture
Lateral Rotation (External Rotation): ? no picture


Ankle
Plantar Flexion - Calf Raise
Dorsal Flexion - Shin Raise

How about sideways? away from leg, and towards leg? Supination and Pronation


Thats pretty much it as far as the movements of all the muscles go. The ones I do not know about or can find the right exercise that matches, what are the right ones that best give the example? (not machine ones. most of those confuse me). Which ones cover the upper body horizontal pull and push? how about upper body vertical pull and push? I know for quad dominant and hip dominant, the hip articulations all cover it. However, the exercises that I use for hip articulations are all extensions.

I really want to learn all the movements involved. I especially want to learn how to balance out my hips so one hip won't keep getting higher than the other and the chiropractor has to keep putting the joint in its place. The hips are the main thing that tightens up. A lot of times when I am walking I hear popping sound a lot or when I am on the floor doing leg swings for pilates or doing leg kicks myself, I hear a little pop sound. The main thing I want to learn is the hips and to learn how my hips work to prevent the noise from happening and joints tightening up and coming out of place.

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Post by KPj » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:48 pm

I accept everything you've said about power and strength :-)

I know its a forum, and it's for 'debate' or whatever, that's what this is, just brainstorming, I've learned from this discussion and learn from a lot of discussions on this forum.
Everytime I hear the term "functional," I want to puke. It is abused, over used and misunderstood. Learning to squat is "functional" in that you learn how to get down to the potty or a chair and get up, etc.

So, the majority of strength training movement are "fucntional." Standing on a ball and doing curls is NOT functional. There are few instances in which anyone would perform that mvoement...see my post on "BOSU Balls, a waste to fime." Even Irorman signed off on it.

Agreed. I can't stand BOSU balls. I remember the post and agreed also.
Your bias appear to be from a bad experience. Your message seems to be, try it and if it does't work, give up.
That's not my message at all. My message was try it with proper instruction. The alternative was piggy backing on what you said about using videos, only, you need to 'know what to look for', i.e. learn it.
My philosophy is that "It better to fall on your face going for the ball than to fall back on your butt waiting for the ball to come to you." Billy Martin/Baseball.
I appreciate that. And I have experience with it myself, making some pretty stupid mistakes and suffering because of it. It was a test of motivation and commitment, but despite a chronic injury, I'm in the best shape of my life.

But my 'bias' is based on the fact that I made the same stupid mistakes as countless others before and after me. nothing unique about my injury at all. Loads of people done the same thing before me, and loads will do the same after me. Because of that alone, I will always tell people to air on the side of caution. I'm not saying 'dont do it', i'm saying 'treat it with respect' - especially olympic lifting.
history is an instruction manual for life
I think this came from Sun Tzu Art of War but i'm not sure.

Anyway, point is - i'l always have endless respect for you old timers who 'came up the hard way' (otis spann, blues pianist, lol). However, I don't see the point in the young up and comers making the same mistakes.

I mean, we used to think cigarettes were healthy? They were supplied to soldiers by the government? But we've learned, we know cigarettes aren't healthy now, so we don't encourage them now... Maybe we need pictures of dislocated shoulders, popped elbows, knees etc on weight sets now? OK, only kidding about that one.

How many experienced trainers wish they could 'have there first years of training back' ?

And I don't know about the states, but in the UK, if your over 70 (maybe slightly younger), it's pretty likely that you purchased your drivers licence in the post office, no lessons required. Watch and learn. At some point down the line, someone said "ya' know, if we instructed people on how to drive, there might be alot less deaths and road accidents in general!".

And as you said about the forum - it's to share experience and knowledge. Let the up and comers learn from our mistakes, if they don't want to learn, strongly advise them to get instruction! I can't comment much on what it was like 'back then', but I get the impression the population is a lot less mobile than years back... alot weaker... sitting down at desks & screens a lot more (work, TV)... not getting half as much physical activity (driving, work, tv).... And now weight training is gaining popularity as well. So i would say it's even more important to know what you're doing nowadays.

Anyway, I think this is a never ending debate!! The thread could last years, lol. Thanks for info RE power and strength though, I did learn from it.

KPj

User avatar
stuward
moderator
moderator
Posts: 6650
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Halifax, NS

Post by stuward » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:30 pm

You have asked quite a few questions and since I'm not a kenisiologist i'm not going to attempt to answer everything. You should read some books on the subject. Maybe someone can recommend some. I've marked my comments with **.

I am still waiting to get an answer to my q about pull ups. Is lat pulldowns the only replacement for pull ups? The only grips I can do with a lat pulldown machine is underhand grip, overhand grip, and wide grip. I have no idea how I can do neutral grip on the lat pulldown machine though. (my parents have one, so I can use that in replacement of pull ups because I think thats the only replacement there is for that movement vertical pull)

** To get neutral grip you need a bar with parallel handles on the end.

I am not sure about the Transverse Adduction and where the Dips belong? I wish they showed dumbbell examples or band examples instead of machines on most of these. Machines are not very good because no stabilizers and only works one muscle only. Everything I put is correct right?

** I would call dips adduction instead of transverse adduction. Assuming you don't lean forward the movement of the humerus is similar to the pull up. If you lean forward it is more like transverse adduction.

On the Articulations site, there is also the spine one, which is important for the core http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Spine ... chor164498 I don't know why the neck exercises above it is there because no one does exercises for the neck (just stretches).

** wrestlers and football players work their neck since a muscular neck can prevent injuries.

Adduction - Laying Leg Raises for the Inner Thigh

** don't forget side lunges

Elbow http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Elbow.html
Flexion - Bicep Curl
Extension - Overhead Tricep Extension

** Press and rows work these as well.

Thats pretty much it as far as the movements of all the muscles go. The ones I do not know about or can find the right exercise that matches, what are the right ones that best give the example? (not machine ones. most of those confuse me). Which ones cover the upper body horizontal pull and push? how about upper body vertical pull and push? I know for quad dominant and hip dominant, the hip articulations all cover it. However, the exercises that I use for hip articulations are all extensions.

** The whole point of compound movements is that more than one articulation is worked at once. It would be nice if the exercise pages listed the articulations worked. The power exercises do: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Oly ... Clean.html


Post Reply