Basic vs Auxiliary & Truth about Cardio

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, parth, stuward

Post Reply
danielk
n00b
n00b
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:20 am

Basic vs Auxiliary & Truth about Cardio

Post by danielk » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:34 am

Hi,

You have done an excellent job on this site with the exercise lists that provides great help and all I can say is keep up the good work!

I have two questions:

1) You mention it is preferable to do "basic exercises" unless a second exercise is performed for the same muscle group. What is the definition of same muscle group here?
At my gym the exercise "Seated Rear Lateral Raise" is very popular. However, since it is classed as auxiliary, and none of your templates (not even the athletic 4-day split template) include two Rear Deltoid exerices, logically it follows that you discourage all use of "Seated Rear Lateral Raise" --- am I right?

2) At Nautilus, as well as other places, they advise not doing more than 20 minutes cardio per session as otherwise it burns muscles. What is your opinion on this? If I am a moderate trainer who wants to stay in good shape both muscle-wise and cardio-wise, what would be the best combination?

Thanks for your help.

/Daniel


User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:41 am

1. The term basic refers to a compound move vs aux which usually refers to an isolation move. In the case of rear delts, as far as scapular motion goes, it's the same as a horizontal rowing motion, you're just taking the upper arms (biceps) out of the equation. There are no strict rules here, if your getting your rows in, and want to follow it up with the aux movement for a set or two, go for it.
2. I don't know where the magic number of 20 mins came from, probably just a basic guideline, but if your just doing moderate cardio, and not doing 5-10 K's everyday, sure, 20-30 mins 3X / WK or so should provide adequate health benefits without cutting into your strength training. The key though, is that there are no magic numbers. Listen to your body and adjust as necessary.
Tim

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Re: Basic vs Auxiliary & Truth about Cardio

Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:56 am

danielk wrote:I have two questions:

1) You mention it is preferable to do "basic exercises" unless a second exercise is performed for the same muscle group. What is the definition of same muscle group here?
I'll assume that you're using these guidelines:
* Italicized exercises are optional.
* Choose optional exercises sparingly.
* Generally, choose basic exercises when possible.
* Choose an auxiliary exercise if a second exercise for the same muscle group is performed.
The same muscle group is the target muscle of the exercise. And the guidelines say that it is best to train muscles with basic exercises, while auxillary (optional) exercises should be used sparingly. Finally, if you choose a template that exercises a muscle group twice, you should follow the basic exercie with an auxillary exercise. In other words, you shouldn't train a muscle group with two basic exercises.

The last point is violated often, though - it's common for trainers, for instance, to do squats and leg presses in their leg workouts. Both exercises are basic exercises for the quads.
danielk wrote: At my gym the exercise "Seated Rear Lateral Raise" is very popular. However, since it is classed as auxiliary, and none of your templates (not even the athletic 4-day split template) include two Rear Deltoid exerices, logically it follows that you discourage all use of "Seated Rear Lateral Raise" --- am I right?
No. The rear deltoids are a synergist with the lats and other back muscles in rowing exercises. You would do the seated lateral raise as an auxillary exercise for the rear deltoids if you feel they need additional attention.
danielk wrote:2) At Nautilus, as well as other places, they advise not doing more than 20 minutes cardio per session as otherwise it burns muscles. What is your opinion on this? If I am a moderate trainer who wants to stay in good shape both muscle-wise and cardio-wise, what would be the best combination?
That depends on the individual being trained and the intensity of the cardio exercise. Walking at a brisk pace for 30-45 minutes a day will not burn muscle. Running it might. If you are thin and are trying to gain muscle, you shouldn't do more than an hour of cardio a week that is more intense than walking. But if you're overweight, you can and probably should do more. Like TimD said, the best combination for you will have to be determined by your training experience, not by magic numbers.

Good luck, and happy training.

amivan
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 276
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:15 pm

Re: Basic vs Auxiliary & Truth about Cardio

Post by amivan » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:19 pm

danielk wrote:
2) At Nautilus, as well as other places, they advise not doing more than 20 minutes cardio per session as otherwise it burns muscles. What is your opinion on this? If I am a moderate trainer who wants to stay in good shape both muscle-wise and cardio-wise, what would be the best combination?

/Daniel
Personally I think that's a load of horsecrap because if you're only running(or biking or whatever) 20 minutes you're going to have to run at a greater intensity than you would if you were running for a longer duration or you won't burn enough calories. If you do it at a low intensity, sure you burn fat but you're just going to replace that fat the moment you eat something with fat in it, or if you overeat in which case your carbs or protein gets stored as fat, so either way, when you do low intensity you're going to get that fat back unless you can count your calories precisely. Also with high intensity cardio you'll burn more kcals post-exercise. Anyways, what i was kind of getting around to is that with high intensity cardio, you will lose muscle mass, how significantly I don't know. If I am wrong about any of this, someone please correct me (with proof).

User avatar
Stephen Johnson
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
Posts: 2097
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: New York City

Re: Basic vs Auxiliary & Truth about Cardio

Post by Stephen Johnson » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:48 pm

amivan wrote:Also with high intensity cardio you'll burn more kcals post-exercise. Anyways, what i was kind of getting around to is that with high intensity cardio, you will lose muscle mass, how significantly I don't know. .
You might want to take a look at the following articles:

Cortisol control: learning to control this muscle-eroding hormone will increase your muscle mass
HIIT and Run: This Aerobics Alternative Will Help Take You Out of the Fat Lane

HIIT is gaining favor as a cardio alternative, because it is brief and it preserves muscle. The problem is that it's only an option for people who are in good shape and are free of cardio risk factors.


User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:08 pm

I see Stephen has already addressed it, but I'll add one more, complete w/referenced studies
The Heirarchy of Fat Loss
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1526539
Tim


Post Reply