Power training

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scs217
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Post by scs217 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:58 pm

Right. The field of powerlifting is a bit of a misnomer. The maximum power is generated by the olympic lifters and the maximum weight is moved by the powerlifters.


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Post by slw0096 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:14 pm

Thanks Stephen Johnson. My mind was having a hard time grasping the low weight / low reps because of what I have been doing.

TimD: My plan is to train strength/endurance for 4 - 8 weeks (based on results and whether I get bored with the routine or not) then I want to spend about 4 weeks power training (I guess this would be periodization?). I found the Heavy, Light, Medium information on this site, and I'm considering doing this just so the training doesn't become monotonous. I don't intend on mixing the strength training with power training. My routine for next week is to work Heavy on Monday, Light on Wednesday and Medium on Friday; with the following exercises:

DB Row
Squat
Bench Press
Straight Leg Deadlift
Upright Row
Raises (DB)
Barbell Curl
Situp
Lying Ext
Rev Curl
Wrist Curl
Rev Wrist Curl

I intend to do this for 6-8 weeks then want to adapt a power routine for a few weeks then either return to this routine or change my exercises. Any constructive criticism or guideance will be greatly appreciated.

Trainer Chris: Just take a closer look at this website and many others. It clearly shows Power to work from 30-60% RM. (PS, I don't appreciate the retarded comment.) Afterall, these forums are to help others.

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Post by Jungledoc » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:09 pm

.My bad. The real post is below.
Last edited by Jungledoc on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Jungledoc » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:11 pm

stuward wrote:No, they're not the same but they're related. Power is strength applied fast. Power carries over to sports better than other fitness measurements. It also declines faster in middle age than strength does so it becomes increasing more important to train for power. Olympic lifts generate the maximum power. Several Crossfit and Kettlebell exercises focus on power as well.
I assume that's the reason that the OP heard that power training uses lower %1rm, and that the object at that weight is to lift explosively, and crank out the reps quickly. I've read a bit about that elsewhere. That's partly why it bothered me when someone jumped in and said that the idea was "retarded" (the other reason is that I just hate to hear that word used as a pejorative, for deep personal reasons). I don't know if everyone agrees about it, but it wasn't just an off-the-wall idea on the part of the OP.

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Post by Stephen Johnson » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:00 pm

slw0096 wrote:TimD: My plan is to train strength/endurance for 4 - 8 weeks (based on results and whether I get bored with the routine or not) then I want to spend about 4 weeks power training (I guess this would be periodization?). I found the Heavy, Light, Medium information on this site, and I'm considering doing this just so the training doesn't become monotonous. I don't intend on mixing the strength training with power training. My routine for next week is to work Heavy on Monday, Light on Wednesday and Medium on Friday; with the following exercises:

DB Row
Squat
Bench Press
Straight Leg Deadlift
Upright Row
Raises (DB)
Barbell Curl
Situp
Lying Ext
Rev Curl
Wrist Curl
Rev Wrist Curl
Your routine is curl-heavy - 4 of the 12 exercises are curls of some sort. Perhaps you feel the need to prioritize your biceps and forearms, but you would be better off adding a second compound exercise for back (say, pulldowns or chins) and dropping two of the curling movements.


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Post by scs217 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:08 pm

Also, unless the DB rows are done one handed leaning over a bench, the squats should come first. You could do SLDL with just the bar as a warmup into your warmup squat set though, I find that low weight SLDL's work wonders for flexibility within a workout. And as far as the SLDL's go, it might not be a bad idea to alternate regular DL's in with them every 2 or 3 weeks. DL's will work wonders for your grip if you don't use wrist straps and also maintain the double overhand grip for every set but your heaviest ones, and even then if you can manage the grip then do.
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/Cros ... natomy.wmv
That will help make sure that your form is good on DL's.

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Post by KPj » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:25 am

Just thought I would add with regards to power, Kenny Croxdales descriptions always stick with me. I really like the following description, from Kennys Building Strength and Power with Complex Training article,

Power/speed training is schooling for your neuromuscular system, teaching it to fire faster. You want to outrun your sticking point with speed. Think of moving a heavy weight through a sticking point as driving your car through a mud hole. Ever stop in a mud hole? You sit there spinning your wheels. What you want to do is have enough speed that the momentum carries you through the mud hole, i.e., your sticking point. The more speed you have going into the mud hole, the greater chance you have of making it through. The same thing applies with your squat, bench and deadlift. You want to blow past the "Bermuda Triangle" of your lift, that point where it gets lost.
http://www.strengthcats.com/complextraining.htm

I could never get my head round it, either, or maybe i didn't want to believe that you get get stronger by lifting lighter? I remember when I first started deadlifting and I got stuck at about 330lbs. I couldn't get it off the floor - this was my sticking point. Out of curiosity from a lot of stuff I had been reading, I started doing speed deadlifts from a deficit for 6-10 sets of 2 reps at 40% of my 1RM. Done this one day per week for one month, went back to DL's in the 90% 1RM plus range and was stronger, and clearly better at blasting it off the floor.

Speed dead lifts aren't exactly grabbing the bull by the horns with regards to 'power training', but they are fun and didn't require much of a change so i went with it.

KPj

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Post by Jungledoc » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:01 am

I'm hoping that Kenny will jump in and answer this, but I'd be glad to hear from anyone else as well.

In the article, they recommend pairing "related exercises," one for power the other for strength. But why not do the same exercise, alternating power and strength sets?

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Post by slw0096 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:48 am

Stephen Johnson wrote:Your routine is curl-heavy - 4 of the 12 exercises are curls of some sort. Perhaps you feel the need to prioritize your biceps and forearms, but you would be better off adding a second compound exercise for back (say, pulldowns or chins) and dropping two of the curling movements.

Thanks for the critique. This leads to my next question: Is using a muscle as a synergist enough to get decent gains, for example, bench press uses triceps as synergist so could I leave out tricep extensions. I read an article where not a lot of programs place importance on forearms and given that I'm not sure using muscles as synergist is enough, I added rev curl for forearm. I then added wrist exercises to improve grip, etc. I've always had scronny looking arms compared to the rest of my body so I do have to focus a little on my arms.

Is there another back exercise that woulld be sufficient as I don't have equipment for pulldowns or chins? Would I remove all or just the wrist curls?
Last edited by slw0096 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by slw0096 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:55 am

scs217 wrote:Also, unless the DB rows are done one handed leaning over a bench, the squats should come first. You could do SLDL with just the bar as a warmup into your warmup squat set though, I find that low weight SLDL's work wonders for flexibility within a workout. And as far as the SLDL's go, it might not be a bad idea to alternate regular DL's in with them every 2 or 3 weeks. DL's will work wonders for your grip if you don't use wrist straps and also maintain the double overhand grip for every set but your heaviest ones, and even then if you can manage the grip then do.
http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/Cros ... natomy.wmv
That will help make sure that your form is good on DL's.

The DB's are done one handed leaning over a bench. I've got them first only because I'm following the full-body alternating upper/lower workout. I was doing SLDL's for a short period of time. My weight increased to the point where I was losing grip before maxing out so I did get some wrist straps. Any suggestions on how to balance weight so that my grip doesn't give out before I get a good work out. I have this same problem with calve raises; I don't feel safe with a barbell given the needed weight, and my grip can't handle the DB's.

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Post by slw0096 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:21 am

KPj wrote:Just thought I would add with regards to power, Kenny Croxdales descriptions always stick with me. I really like the following description, from Kennys Building Strength and Power with Complex Training article,

Power/speed training is schooling for your neuromuscular system, teaching it to fire faster. You want to outrun your sticking point with speed. Think of moving a heavy weight through a sticking point as driving your car through a mud hole. Ever stop in a mud hole? You sit there spinning your wheels. What you want to do is have enough speed that the momentum carries you through the mud hole, i.e., your sticking point. The more speed you have going into the mud hole, the greater chance you have of making it through. The same thing applies with your squat, bench and deadlift. You want to blow past the "Bermuda Triangle" of your lift, that point where it gets lost.
http://www.strengthcats.com/complextraining.htm

I could never get my head round it, either, or maybe i didn't want to believe that you get get stronger by lifting lighter? I remember when I first started deadlifting and I got stuck at about 330lbs. I couldn't get it off the floor - this was my sticking point. Out of curiosity from a lot of stuff I had been reading, I started doing speed deadlifts from a deficit for 6-10 sets of 2 reps at 40% of my 1RM. Done this one day per week for one month, went back to DL's in the 90% 1RM plus range and was stronger, and clearly better at blasting it off the floor.

Speed dead lifts aren't exactly grabbing the bull by the horns with regards to 'power training', but they are fun and didn't require much of a change so i went with it.

KPj
Thanks. He explains that power/strength are trained during the same workout; whereas, I've read to train them separately in cycles i.e. strength train for 4 weeks then power train for 4 or something like that. What are the pros/cons of each? Which is more proned to results? And to repeat a question, why can't the same exercise be performed for power and strength?

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Post by scs217 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:23 am

You can do regular DL's rather than the SLDL's to develop your grip. To help your hands, you would do many small sets of incrementally higher weight rather than a set of 8-12 for example. Let's say that you'll top out at 225lbs: you'd go maybe 135x5(warmup)-155x3-175x2-195x2-225x5. You'd keep the double overhand grip for as many of those as possible, then switch to a mixed grip, and preferably not use the wrist straps at all. The mixed grip is surprisingly strong, but it doesn't help your hand strength out too much. Another thing to watch out with on this much deadlifting is you should keep an eye on your back and make sure you back off at the first sign of it not fully recovering between workouts.

As far as calf raises, do you have a squat rack with safety pins, or a smith machine? Either of those will work to prevent you dropping weights.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:50 am

Jungledoc wrote:I'm hoping that Kenny will jump in and answer this, but I'd be glad to hear from anyone else as well.

In the article, they recommend pairing "related exercises," one for power the other for strength. But why not do the same exercise, alternating power and strength sets?
You could do the same exercise, alternatiing between a strength movement and a power movement.

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:07 am

slw0096 wrote:
KPj wrote:Just thought I would add with regards to power, Kenny Croxdales descriptions always stick with me.
Glad that information was helpful.
He explains that power/strength are trained during the same workout; whereas, I've read to train them separately in cycles i.e. strength train for 4 weeks then power train for 4 or something like that.
That is Periodization training. You lay the foudation for the strength that you need for your sport. There are differeent types of strength.

An example of Periodizaton for a sprinter in track would be to perform a cycle of limiit strength training/pushing heavy loads.

Then move into a cycle that developed power, such as Olympic movement.

Then prior to you meet, focus on speed for you sprint event.

The limit strength and power training lay a foundation for speed.
What are the pros/cons of each?
It's not a matter of pro and con as much as it is writing a program that specifially improves you performance on the "field"...whatever that field may be.

You want to use the right tool (training program) for the right job (sport your in). More on in a minute.
Which is more proned to results?
Both get results. The question is precisely what results do you want. You then work backward, writing the plan that will get you to your destination.

Try this analogy. You want to hang a picture on the wall. Now work backward.

What do you need? A nail, right. Ok, now what tool do you need to put the nail in the wall? Do you use a wrench or a hammer?

It is the same thing with training.
And to repeat a question, why can't the same exercise be performed for power and strength?
You can use the same exercise for power and strength. For power, load need to be around 30% of your 1 RM (repetition max). However, for Olympic movement that load need to be between 70-80%.

For limit strength you want to use heavy loads, 85% or greater than 1 RM.

Kenny Croxdale

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Post by slw0096 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:56 pm

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Which is more proned to results?
Both get results. The question is precisely what results do you want. You then work backward, writing the plan that will get you to your destination.

Try this analogy. You want to hang a picture on the wall. Now work backward.

What do you need? A nail, right. Ok, now what tool do you need to put the nail in the wall? Do you use a wrench or a hammer?

It is the same thing with training.

[Kenny Croxdale
I don't get much activity, so I am using training as my physical activity. The results I'm looking for are to lose weight, get in shape, be proportionately sized and to quote Kevin Spacey in American Beauty "look good naked".......

By periodization concurrently, the routine will have to multiple sets. I've been working out for 14wks and have become accustom to the 1 set routine 3 days a week. At what point would it be more beneficial to move to a multiple set routine? I know there a thousands of philosophies; I'm just picking brains now? In addition, I've read a lot about problems with split programs ex overtraining, etc. Any help on this would be great.

Side question: At what age or stage of training would kids start periodization or lifting heavy instead of maintaining 12-15 reps?


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