abdominal - lumbar equilibrium help!!!!

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desertfox
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abdominal - lumbar equilibrium help!!!!

Post by desertfox » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:23 am

Hi all

does anybody know if there is a solution to Hyperlordosis?

http://www.sageartsstudio.com/student_s ... brium1.jpg


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Post by KPj » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:47 am

Yes, there is.

As a brief summary,

Stretch hip flexors
Stretch quads
DONT stretch your lower back
Increase Hip Mobility
Strengthen glute muscles
Strengthen hamstrings
Strengthen Abs / core
Make a conscious effort to correct your posture throughout the day

Also,

Get soft tissue work done (massage) - manual therapist, foam roller, tennis ball or whatever you can manage...

There's a great article series covering posture analysis and correction on Eric Cresseys site. Go to the link below and look for "neanderthal no more" (parts 1-5).

http://www.ericcressey.com/articles.html

KPj

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Post by desertfox » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:18 am

thanks KPj I really appreciate it

also found this article

http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cyber ... ecises.php

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Post by robertscott » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:16 am

if there's something KPj doesn't know about posture, it's not worth knowing!

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Post by scs217 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:58 pm

I read over the Neanderthal no more articles, and realized that I have some of that going on too. I haven't had a chance to work though pictures yet, but I definitely have the interiorly rotated humerus bones. Might have the back stuff going on also. I've been having some spine and lower back pain the last week, associated with heavy OL lifts and heavy squats. I've been stretching back and legs, foam rolling daily, and heat pack treating twice daily for the last several days with only a little improvement. I'll see how that article works out for me, and either post a new thread or add it on here as additional experience.


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Post by TimD » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:05 pm

Yeah on KPJ. I remember when he firs started posting a few years back. Seemed to have some problems with joints. Then he dropped out of sight, and came back very well schooled in balancing issues and posture in particular. Must have gotten OCD on the subject, but is definately the guru on that subject here on the board.
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Post by Jungledoc » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:22 pm

KPj wrote: DONT stretch your lower back
KPj--Could you explain this more? It seems counter-intuitive to me. Aren't tight lumbar erectors contributing the the lordosis? So why wouldn't it help to stretch them? This is important to me, because I've been stretching mine. Hmm.... and not making very good progress on my lordosis.

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Post by scs217 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:14 pm

I agree with Jungledoc. For instance, with rounded shoulders, you are to strengthen rhomboids (and others) while stretching pectorals. The cause is that you have shortened, powerful muscles on one side and weak, stretched muscles on the other. It would make sense that you would stretch lower back and strengthen abs. In addition to those two things, you would work on your legs such that pelvic tilt is corrected by addressing quads, glutes, and hip flexors.

Could you also elaborate on hip mobility? Does that mean ROM forwards and backwards, or rolling through the entire range of motion. Hip flexor stretches vs ROM and butterflies in addition to hip flexors is what I am asking.

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Post by pdellorto » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:41 am

The advice I've seen - probably from the same folks as KPj - is to not stretch the lower back. Essentially, the lower back is supposed to be tight and stable, not flexible. Stretching improves flexibility, which isn't what you want in the lower back.

Check out page two of this article by Mike Boyle:
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1618485

There are more, but I'm pressed for time.

This article might help, too.

http://users.rcn.com/scientist/BackPainArticle.html

Her information seems pretty reliable, and her posture articles have helped me a bit.

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Post by TimD » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:34 am

There are two schools of thought on the lower back stretching issue. Starr and others actually recomend low back stretching along with trunk curls with low weight to try and strengthen or shore up the smaller intrinsic muscles that surround the spinal cord. Others say not to. I've been doing it for over 40 years with no major problems, and actually fixing a few problems. U think the jury is out on this one. If you do deide to stretch it, just use the appropriate cautions while doing so.
Tim

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Post by KPj » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:41 am

Peter got it spot on. And that Mike Boyle article Peter posted is one of my favourite articles. I've probably read it more than 10 times.

The human body is very deceiving. When your hips tighten up (i.e. anterior pelvic tilt), your hips don't feel tight. Your lower back and hamstrings feel tight. Commons sense tells everyone that if something feels tight, you stretch it. If you take your hamstrings as an example - when in anterior tilt, the front of your hips are pulled DOWN by shortened hipflexors / quads. Subsequently, the rear of your hips tilt UP. When you think of the attachments of the hamstrings, this upward tilt (from the rear) will put a stretch on the hamstrings. This is one reason they feel tight, because they're stretched ALL the time! We also know prolonged static stretching weakens muscles (hence the 'no stretching pre work out), so your actually weakining an already weakened muscle, simply by using common sense and stretching it, because it FEELS tight!

I could go nuts with this and talk about how when in anterior tilt you generally have 'glute amnesia' and therefore the hamstrings are one of the only muscles contributing to hip extension as well as being lengthened and weak AND having to pitch in and help with knee flexion.

The lower back is especially interesting I think because it can be overactive and weak at the same time. It's overactive because your abs are weak as someone has already pointed out. However, when your hips are tight and you lose mobility, your body then looks to your lower back (and knees) for movement when as Peter said, your lower back should be stable and you should be moving from your hips and upper/thoracic spine. You actually WANT your lower back to be stiff! Your lower back, or 'core' (including abs, oblique etc) primarily transfers force from the lower to upper body. This is where the 'I don't do abs, they get trained in DL's and Squats' comes from.

If your with me, you should see that losing mobility at one joint causes a host of compensation and issues. If you have lower back pain and / or knee pain, loosening up the hips a lone can have an amazing effect. But stretching the hamstring and lower back is detrimental to what your trying to do. Whilst the lower back isn't constantly stretched in anterior tilt like the hamstrings, it is constantly being stretched during movement.

An amazing read on lower backs is Dr Stuart McGills book, Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance.

KPj

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Post by KPj » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:02 am

TimD wrote:There are two schools of thought on the lower back stretching issue. Starr and others actually recomend low back stretching along with trunk curls with low weight to try and strengthen or shore up the smaller intrinsic muscles that surround the spinal cord. Others say not to. I've been doing it for over 40 years with no major problems, and actually fixing a few problems. U think the jury is out on this one. If you do deide to stretch it, just use the appropriate cautions while doing so.
Tim
This is one of the things that really gets to me - not your opinion on it, but the fact that there's so much debate. It's what compelled me to look into McGill stuff in a lot more detail.

It's really a 'to flex or not to flex' debate. Dr Stuart McGill, as far as I can gather has been a pioneer in the 'not to flex' side. As he says, in his lab, he fractures spines using flexion.

I don't think there's much debate in the sense that your lower back can't handle load as well when in flexion in comparison to extension. But one thing that has opened my eyes is McGill detailing how when looking at powerlifters and rounded back lifting showed that the lower back rounding wasn't half as extreme when measured, compared to how it looked. Probably due to PL typically having hypertrophied erectors, so the back may 'look' very rounded, but it's not that rounded.

Something clicked with me when I read this as normally everything is relevant to the situation. Lifters from Tims era don't typically have the same postural issues when compared to the hunch backs of today. Meaning that tightened immobile hips are much more common in the new computer / desk culture. This in turn creates a more extreme ROM in the lower back. That in turn means that when the new age hunch backed lifter goes into flexion, it's much more extreme than someone who's been lifting for years, and didn't spend as much of there youth hunched over a desk and generally not moving very much...

So maybe, lifting with a lower back that is rounded a little is fine. But lifting in extreme flexion, which most people today are capable of, is a bad idea - similar to extreme extension or hyperextension... Both extremes are 'not good'.

As for stretching it - again, I think it's relative. If your in anterior tilt and therefore have more ROM than you should in the lower back, then I wouldn't stretch. If all is well, then go ahead if you really feel like it...


KPj


p.s Tim, it's funny you remember me first posting here. That's basically what happened. I got told I shouldn't bench again and would probably never get rid of the impingement. This put me into a 'learning rage' as I thought it was a joke being told that at the age of 21, and I just knew it couldn't be right - it was a 'screw you, Mrs physio, I'll learn all this myself, I don't need you!" lol. So yes, OCD shortly followed.

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Post by Jungledoc » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:34 am

So... For a typical pelvic tilt (like mine), we should be stretching the quads, not the hams, and work on strengthening the hams and glutes. And leave off stretching the low back. It makes sense as Boyle presented it.

And if we don't really need to stretch the hams, we don't really need to do any forward bending stretches back flat or not?

I also wonder if I have a tenancy to squat with too much lumbar lordosis. All the instructions emphasize avoiding the "rounding of the low back", so I think I try really hard not to round, and instead flex the spine too much.

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to stop squatting and deading, both of which I love doing, at least for a time. I've changed my workout so that I do each only once a week, and I'll see how that goes for a while. I'm also going to be conservative with loading, especially on the squat. And I'm trying to work my hams and glutes more. I worry that I'm never going to get around this.

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Post by KPj » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:56 am

Jungledoc wrote: I'm afraid that I'm going to have to stop squatting and deading, both of which I love doing, at least for a time. I've changed my workout so that I do each only once a week, and I'll see how that goes for a while. I'm also going to be conservative with loading, especially on the squat. And I'm trying to work my hams and glutes more. I worry that I'm never going to get around this.
Are you in pain doing the lifts? Please bear in mind that I have a tendency to REALLY over explain things. Part of it is just the way I am and also because I usually type it all in one go without even looking up so sometimes it's as if my fingers won't shut up. So Simply put - Yes, stretch the quads / hip flexors. Leave the lower back and hams for now and hammer the glutes and hams.

Deadlifts and squats just about take care of all of those issues. Gray Cook says, "train the dead lift, maintain the squat", because the deadlift hit's your whole posterior chain even with a restricted ROM (think rack pulls). However, the more you restrict ROM in a Squat, the more you make it quad dominant and take the posterior chain out of the movement...

So if your back is rounding when squatting, then work on getting that squating ability back, and strengthen the glutes with DL variations - if full ROM is a problem, do rack pulls...


scs217 - by hip mobility I really mean everything. With anterior pelvic tilt the common restrictions are extension (forwards) and external rotation and abduction... So forward, back wards, outwards, inwards, and don't forget 'straight out to the sides' which is very similar to 'outwards' but needs to be addressed as well. With all those different movments to consider, it should be apparent why single leg stuff is so valuable, and especially single leg unsupported stuff, like pistols - you have to create / resist practically every movement you can think of.

KPj

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Post by KPj » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:42 am

Just one more thing, as I hate the thought of scaring people off lifting.

A little anterior tilt is fine, a little kyphosis is fine. A little bit of anything is generally ok, it's when it gets excessive that you need to be concerned. This is where your static posture (standing or in a picture) fails to tell you whats really going on. To get a proper assessment, you really need to see your posture in movement . I know guys who DL close to 600lbs but have anterior tilt. It would be kind of difficult to tell them they have weak glutes!

My own hips, although improved drastically, are still a little tilted and I know now from my last physio session, that I pass basically all assessments with flying colours...

A PT friend of mine constantly tells me i'm trying to achieve a perfection that doesn't exist. I probably have been, and holding myself back in other goals because of it... So don't let that happen to anyone else, but obviously, certain issues to need addressed. Encase anyone doesn't know, you can go to a physio and just get a 'biomechanical assessment' - you don't have to have your shoulder hanging off to go see a physio. I would highly recommend that people who are concerned do that.

KPj


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