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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:56 am
by lightningsix
kind of hard to believe. Not undermining you at all, you've given me some awesome tips in the past.

But real life fights are very short and there is little to almost no skill involved with a bunch of flailing punches as fast as they can throw them. To try and grab someone or take them down in the middle of their frenzy is a very risky thing considering unstable fights. I personally wouldn't want to get close enough to a person for those type of moves.

Well placed jabs work wonders. If you know how to throw correct jabs, it can deal a lot of force. Of course jab is one of the weaker strikes but very effective and has a lot of stopping power.

Kind of got off track there, but my own personal experience in street fights.... which have been many, especially when younger. I wouldn't use any wrestling or jiu jitsu and I know both. You try and get the inside for one of those close contact moves and there's just too much room for error and you risk a lot of unecessary injuries.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:59 am
by pdellorto
Honestly, if you only care about self-defense, go to dedicated self-defense courses. Learn to carry a legal weapon, what circumstances you can use force within the bounds of the law, and how to recognize and avoid dangerous situations. Learning to fight unarmed is at best a second-best solution to personal safety. I've been training martial arts for something like 24 years now, and the best self-defense training I got was learning to watch my back, avoid dark areas, recognize potential ambush spots, and to stay alert. All the punches, kicks, blocks, and locks I learned are secondary to not getting into a fight in the first place.

But, this isn't to say these classes aren't valuable. But recognize them for what they probably are - a toe in the water of martial arts training, a cheap way to see if you like the training and comraderie and personal improvement you can get from them. If you do, keep it up. If you can find one that emphasizes real-world emergency utility, that's ideal. But the best way to defend yourself is to avoid trouble in the first place, not to learn to throw a good punch or kick. If it comes down to doing that, you're already in a fair amount of trouble.

Anyway, on the "fights going to the ground" vs. "stand up punching" bit, there is an interesting article over at EJMAS:
http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

I'd never tell you NOT to train the martial arts, just recognize it's not a panacea for safety problems!

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:05 am
by lightningsix
pdellorto wrote:Honestly, if you only care about self-defense, go to dedicated self-defense courses. Learn to carry a legal weapon, what circumstances you can use force within the bounds of the law, and how to recognize and avoid dangerous situations. Learning to fight unarmed is at best a second-best solution to personal safety. I've been training martial arts for something like 24 years now, and the best self-defense training I got was learning to watch my back, avoid dark areas, recognize potential ambush spots, and to stay alert. All the punches, kicks, blocks, and locks I learned are secondary to not getting into a fight in the first place.

But, this isn't to say these classes aren't valuable. But recognize them for what they probably are - a toe in the water of martial arts training, a cheap way to see if you like the training and comraderie and personal improvement you can get from them. If you do, keep it up. If you can find one that emphasizes real-world emergency utility, that's ideal. But the best way to defend yourself is to avoid trouble in the first place, not to learn to throw a good punch or kick. If it comes down to doing that, you're already in a fair amount of trouble.

Anyway, on the "fights going to the ground" vs. "stand up punching" bit, there is an interesting article over at EJMAS:
http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

I'd never tell you NOT to train the martial arts, just recognize it's not a panacea for safety problems!
Sorry but a link to law enforcement perspective doesn't apply lol.
How many times have you actually faught a cop? probably never. Anyone who is willing to strike an officer and face years in prison is a dumbass or has to be on something. Of course law enforcement use take downs and ground moves how else do they get the cuffs on them?

Besides, anyone who actually witnesses an officer boxing, punching, kicking whatever toe to toe with some accused criminal is downright negligent, and they can be suspended if not fired for it.

-everything else you wrote I agree with. A lot of fighting situations you can simply avoid or walk away from. I was giving advice on fights that are just unavoidable and possibly being outnumbered.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:10 am
by pdellorto
I just said it was an interesting article, not that it was some refutation or support of ground vs. standup.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:20 am
by KPj
I think it's an open ended debate. The kick in the shin was just what a boxing coach said - he might not even of been serious. It worked for Christopher Moltisanti in the Sopranos :wink:

In real life, I think anyone can beat anyone. One lucky punch, kick, head butt, in the right place from anyone or to anyone can end it. I reckon the person who reacts best, wins, for the most part. I come from small town, where, growing up, all the small towns fought with each other, just for the sake of it. I'm sure it happens everywhere. But sometimes the guys who won the most actually had really bad technique. They're just hardy guys that aren't scared to hit or get hit from someone.

I was raised to hit people before they hit me. And that's what I tell people younger than me, including my own younger brother, and g/fs younger brother. For example, if some random weird looking guy comes up and starts talking to you with an attitude, he WANTS to hit you, end of story. That's how it is here, anyway. Mindless trouble makers always want to talk before they strike. It's all about drama and image for them. You can anticipate it and hope that if you bow your head and don't say anything remotely provocative that you'll just be left along. Or, as soon as he says his opening line, "what's your problem!" (or something to that effect) - just go for them.

I like this best, though.
pdellorto wrote:But the best way to defend yourself is to avoid trouble in the first place, not to learn to throw a good punch or kick. If it comes down to doing that, you're already in a fair amount of trouble.
I do beleive that if you keep your wits about you, trouble can be avoided. It's much harder when you are younger but when you're older it's easier I think. And like Peter said, when your in that situation, your in trouble anyway. That's why i say 'hit them first'. It's a horrible situation, the outcome is never great regardless of what you do, you just need to look afteryourself.

KPj

um

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:10 pm
by CoreAlex
like said earlier, kicking the shins is a great idea and also a realy good way to throw your opponent off of you is a quick chop, jap, or plunge to the throat. it doesnt even have to be full power beacause any shot to the throat hurts. If he goes straight for punches put both your elbows facing towards your opponent, not only will tis cover you but it can also hurt the guys hand realy bad. for knife fights always control the knife hand and dont get cocky but what u mainly want to do is get away from him.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:01 pm
by Rik-Blades
Of course, if you fail to break his shin or kneecap and dont put him down in one punch, you end up dead.

Plenty of kids in the news every week here in the u.k. end up stabbed to death, fast flexible kids that dont smoke, all dead.

And there's the guy i spent time with in prison, who jumped in the air and headbutted someone because he thought he was about to be attacked, killed him with one headbutt.

Best defence, learn to sprint 100 meters in around 13 seconds and then jog for 5 minutes. You keep your wallet and its great cardio.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:06 pm
by lightningsix
Rik-Blades wrote:Of course, if you fail to break his shin or kneecap and dont put him down in one punch, you end up dead.

Plenty of kids in the news every week here in the u.k. end up stabbed to death, fast flexible kids that dont smoke, all dead.

And there's the guy i spent time with in prison, who jumped in the air and headbutted someone because he thought he was about to be attacked, killed him with one headbutt.

Best defence, learn to sprint 100 meters in around 13 seconds and then jog for 5 minutes. You keep your wallet and its great cardio.
Haha, awesome.

Re: Martial arts

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:57 pm
by Kenny Croxdale
The more i hear about people being attacked and robbed, the more incentive i have to learn a martial arts form. I'm 56 and not as flexible as i once was, but i'm working on that.


First of all, the likelyhood of you ever being attacked and robbed is remote. If it hasn't happened to you by now, it not likely to ever happen.

Secondly, if you want protection buy a gun.

If you going to take some martial arts, take it becasue it something you would enjoy going, the self defences you' learn would be the "Icing on the cake."

Kenny Croxdale

Re: k

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:03 pm
by Kenny Croxdale
The only reason I wouldn't recommend jiu jitsu and wrestling and such is because he's mainly talking about real life defense situations. He needs mainly only striking arts. How many times have you seen a real life fight break out where they began a wrestling or jiu jitsu stance or immediately dropped to the ground to get ready?
In real life, a fight usually end up on the ground. Those unfamiliar with grappling skils are akin to a trutle on his back, you're done.
But he was mainly asking for self defense real life situations. He needs to know how to strike from a standing stance.
Again, a gun is much better for defense.

Kenny Croxdale

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:52 pm
by Matt Z
I disagree that all skill goes out the window in a real fight. This may happen if someone has little or no experience, or if the experience they do have has little or no relevance to a real fight (jump spin kicks and point sparring for example). However, those with a good foundation in striking or grappling will fall back on their training. It may not always be pretty, but it definitely beats flailing wildly and hoping for the best.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:09 pm
by Matt Z
Also, I agree that a firearm can be a very good thing to have (provided one knows how to use it). However, there are many places where it isn't legal to own guns, much less carry a concealed handgun. Meanwhile, there many self defense situations where shooting someone might not be the best option.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:10 pm
by Jungledoc
I'm always curious why some people find it necessary to fight fairly often, and some never do. I suppose it has something to do with where you go and who you're around. I often tell people "if you want to avoid trouble, don't go where the trouble is" and I stand by that. I would guess that most fights have something to do with alcohol use, even if not to the extent that most of us would consider excessive, on the part of at least one person involved. There is just something about the disinhibition of alcohol that leads young men (mostly men, at least) to get into those situations.

I agree that martial arts training may help you do better, especially against an inexperienced, or unprepared opponent, but it is no panacea. Against an aggressive, determined, experienced and especially armed foe, it won't get you very far.

I also agree that the best course (if you have to be in situations where there is real danger of attack), is a firearm. Get a carry permit, get a good quality handgun, and most of all, learn how to use it. A friend of mine (who does indeed carry) was confronted at an ATM by a young man with a knife. My friend looked him straight in the eyes, and said, "Gee...you came to a gun fight, and all you brought was that knife?" The guy hesitated a second and ran off. My friend didn't even have to draw.

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:24 pm
by Matt Z
Honestly, I haven't been in a real street fight since 6th grade. Still I like to be prepared (as much as one reasonably can be).

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:45 pm
by Matt Z
As for which is better, striking vrs. grappling, the answer depends on the situation. Against two or more attackers, taking a fight to the ground would be really bad idea. Meanwhile, against a single attacker with a baseball bat I'd much rather shoot for a double-leg than try to box with him. This is one good reason to learn both, ... it gives you more obtions.

Likewise, in a fight things rarely go as planned. For example, even a good striker can easily find himself fighting off his back. At times like that, it's good to have a Plan B.