Martial arts

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KPj
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Post by KPj » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:55 am

Rik-Blades wrote:Of course, if you fail to break his shin or kneecap and dont put him down in one punch, you end up dead.

Plenty of kids in the news every week here in the u.k. end up stabbed to death, fast flexible kids that dont smoke, all dead.

And there's the guy i spent time with in prison, who jumped in the air and headbutted someone because he thought he was about to be attacked, killed him with one headbutt.

Best defence, learn to sprint 100 meters in around 13 seconds and then jog for 5 minutes. You keep your wallet and its great cardio.
Yeah - The Knife crime over here is a joke now. That's another thing to consider, really, and more reasons to try avoid it in the first place. Actually, you need to just assume everyone carries a knife, i think. Where I stay, a 14 year old boy got stabbed and killed by a 16 year old boy, because the 14 year old took his alcohol! It's crazy. I like what the police are doing now on social networking sites. A lot of younger boys up my way have been arrested because they were found posing with knifes and other weapons in photos, on BEBO!

KPj


Kenny Croxdale
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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:42 am

Jungledoc wrote:I'm always curious why some people find it necessary to fight fairly often, and some never do. I suppose it has something to do with where you go and who you're around. I often tell people "if you want to avoid trouble, don't go where the trouble is" and I stand by that. I would guess that most fights have something to do with alcohol use, even if not to the extent that most of us would consider excessive, on the part of at least one person involved. There is just something about the disinhibition of alcohol that leads young men (mostly men, at least) to get into those situations.
I agree, fighting makes no sense. No one really wins.
I agree that martial arts training may help you do better, especially against an inexperienced, or unprepared opponent, but it is no panacea. Against an aggressive, determined, experienced and especially armed foe, it won't get you very far.
And no matter how "bad" you are, at some point you'll run into a "faster gun" (better fighter).
I also agree that the best course (if you have to be in situations where there is real danger of attack), is a firearm. Get a carry permit, get a good quality handgun, and most of all, learn how to use it.


Yes, but is the likelihood of any needing a gun or to fight with anyone is rare. The majority of time the, "It takes two to fight" applies. Most of the time we have choices.
A friend of mine (who does indeed carry) was confronted at an ATM by a young man with a knife. My friend looked him straight in the eyes, and said, "Gee...you came to a gun fight, and all you brought was that knife?" The guy hesitated a second and ran off. My friend didn't even have to draw.
There you go, a guy trumps a knife or even someone versed in martial arts.

If one is averse to having a gun, might I suggest brass knuckles. They are easily carried in one's pocket. One head punch or even a shot to the ribs usually is enough to end the fight.

It's hard to fight when your punch drunk from having some metal tatooed into your forehead and you don't feel much like fighting if you've just gotten your ribs cracked and can't breath.

I love brass knuckes.

Tim's "A side kick to just below the knee wuth a scrape down the shin with a hard soled shoe works wonders" is will do the trick.

CoreAlex and KPj's "kick in the shin"...is another.

Here an alternative that I used successfully. I was once confronted by a guy who weighed about 220 lbs and I weighed about 150 lbs.

I mouthed off to him. He then told me he was going to kick my ass. I let him know that was NOT going to happen.

We were in a parking lot.

A small skinny guy running around cars in a parking lot is impossible to catch...:)

Kenny Croxdale

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Post by Ubulus Dorsimus » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:44 am

pdellorto wrote:Honestly, if you only care about self-defense, go to dedicated self-defense courses. Learn to carry a legal weapon, what circumstances you can use force within the bounds of the law, and how to recognize and avoid dangerous situations. Learning to fight unarmed is at best a second-best solution to personal safety. I've been training martial arts for something like 24 years now, and the best self-defense training I got was learning to watch my back, avoid dark areas, recognize potential ambush spots, and to stay alert. All the punches, kicks, blocks, and locks I learned are secondary to not getting into a fight in the first place.
There's an answer from someone who knows what they're talking about. Self defense is more about avoidance and prevention. Most people heavily into martial arts have an interest in it beyond self defense, such as sport.

If you are serious about learning self defense, then you need to study stand up, ground, and weapons (defending against and using offensively). Your ground game need not be like a BJJ or MMA player. Escapes from the ground are probably more important than holding/pinning and submitting techniques. It's a huge mistake to not study ground fighting. It is very easy to take a person down to the ground, especially if they have not practiced takedown defenses. It's even easier to hold them down if they've never practiced escapes.

A good self defense program will cover these ranges of combat. But again, you need not study it like someone preparing for the UFC. That is overkill and the strategy in a sporting match may not be good for the street. Your program should cover defending yourself on loose ground, in the dark, in cramped places, sitting down, multiple opponents, weapons of all kinds, and even defending yourself with a limb incapacitated. The odds of you being attacked are tiny. Training for a square fight mono y mono with honor ala dojo or sport style is not realistic for the real world either and is probably over kill.

I agree about learning to use weapons. Your number one priority in real combat should be one thing: gain the advantage. Learning to effectively use a weapon and carrying it is much easier and more effective than any unarmed combat system you'll ever find. You wouldn't fight a war with your empty hands. You wouldn't want to fight a wild animal with your hands alone. Why strive to fight a criminal with empty hands?

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Post by KPj » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:13 am

:lol: Great post Kenny.

I was discussing something similar with an older brother an some friends the other week.

Basically, we were saying that practically every male will get 'jumped' at least once in their life, most likely during mid to late teens, but deffinitly before they're 30. We reckon it's inevitable.

We were really referring to the Scottish mentality but I don't see why it would be any different anywhere else. For example, we were on a night out, 2 friends and I were walking up a busy street. We were eating pizza (for the record, it before I trained!). Anyway, a boy literally just lept out of a doorway and landed one on my friend. Unbelievable - they never knew each other or anything. Completely random. What a waste of pizza. Police were across the road so it didn't go any further (the police saw this, but decided to send us our seperate ways, no arrests or anything). This is an extreme but good example because that's how easy it can happen...

So, what do you think. Is being 'jumped' just part of growing up?

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Post by Kenny Croxdale » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:33 am

Self defense is more about avoidance and prevention. Most people heavily into martial arts have an interest in it beyond self defense, such as sport.
That sums up my thoughts on it. As I stated in my first post, one should take it because it something they like and enjoy, rather than as a defense method.
If you are serious about learning self defense, then you need to study stand up, ground, and weapons (defending against and using offensively). Your ground game need not be like a BJJ or MMA player. Escapes from the ground are probably more important than holding/pinning and submitting techniques. It's a huge mistake to not study ground fighting. It is very easy to take a person down to the ground, especially if they have not practiced takedown defenses. It's even easier to hold them down if they've never practiced escapes.


As I mentioned in another post, just about every fight ends up on the ground, that reality. If you don't have grappling skills, you doomed.

I took Judo once. I found it easy to take down and hold my own with many brown belt and some black belts. I was able to muscle them into arm bars and chokes.

However, I found that strength can only take you so far. A good grappler will create an opportunity. So, we are back to there is always a "faster gun"...no matter how bad you are some else is badder.

And while escapes are important, learning an arm bar and chokes are more than submission tacttics, An arm bar can easily be break an arm and a choke hold can "turn off their lights" with you opponent.

Having a broken arm takes the fight out of you and being choked out end the fight. I'd focus on that as much as the escape.
A good self defense program will cover these ranges of combat. But again, you need not study it like someone preparing for the UFC. That is overkill and the strategy in a sporting match may not be good for the street. Your program should cover defending yourself on loose ground, in the dark, in cramped places, sitting down, multiple opponents, weapons of all kinds, and even defending yourself with a limb incapacitated. The odds of you being attacked are tiny. Training for a square fight mono y mono with honor ala dojo or sport style is not realistic for the real world either and is probably over kill.


There we go, "The odds of you being attached are TINY."
I agree about learning to use weapons. Your number one priority in real combat should be one thing: gain the advantage. Learning to effectively use a weapon and carrying it is much easier and more effective than any unarmed combat system you'll ever find. You wouldn't fight a war with your empty hands. You wouldn't want to fight a wild animal with your hands alone. Why strive to fight a criminal with empty hands?
Kevlar body amor would be a nice touch...:) Good for guns, knives, brass knuckles, etc.

When and if you meet: Tim, KPj or CoreAlex...be wearing shin guards. You just can't trust those dirty bastards!

Kenny Croxdale


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Post by KPj » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:30 am

I reckon i'm naturally a good 'grappler', but I may be biased.

I remember in high school, the last year there, these 'self defense' classes were on. This "alleged" Aikeido expert came and took classes. everyone was going on about how good he was, so we went. He was quite good, but honestly, I think he was full of rubbish. We used to blatantly wynd him up, he would talk about what he had to do to get his black belt (or whatever it was, I can't remember), and we would ask, "that's all good and well, but, could you take Hulk Hogan???". He would actually say, yes. He looked serious. No one can take Hulk hogan, end of story.

He was good though. He would ask us what attackes we would like to see how to defend. He had a wooden knife, foam baseball bat etc. He had an assistant. I accused his assitant of acting, saying "you know exactly how he's going to hit you". So the he said, "fine, you take the bat and attack me" - woohooo! (the bat was foam, still quite hard though)

Anyway, i stood about 8 feet from him, and he told me to attack him. So, i walked a couple of steps forward, and threw the bat at his face, then charged into him and took him down (spear!). His ribs were completely open due to his hands blocking the bat. It was great. I ended up pinning him on his stomach. I started picking up all his fake weapons and hitting him on the head, and he managed to get hold of my thumb!!!!! Twisted it back and I was 'disarmed'. Then he told me what he REALLY would of done if it was in 'real life'. Saying what I done was stupid, apparently he would of paralised me. mhmm, suuuuuuure you would.

In saying that, we did learn a lot from the guy. Good methods of getting out of certain holds and things like that, and pressure points and all that stuff. Could be quite handy. Or you could just kick them in the shin :roll:

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Post by hoosegow » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:42 am

I don't remember where I picked this up, but it is an interesting read:

ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D.,author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to theUnited States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."
If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens?

What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like
big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other.

Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

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Post by Rik-Blades » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:19 pm

Who would win in a straight fight?

Hulk Hogan OR Spiderman? :lol:

The sad fact these day's is no-one looking for a fight will fight fair.

I cant remember ever seeing a fight on a Saturday night that just involved a one on one. There's alway's the idiots friends to back him up.

If someones out to commit a street robbery, you can bet he's jot his junkie friend in the shadows, ready to hit you from behind if it all goes wrong. If your names not Bruce Lee, you really dont stand a chance. And how long does is take to become Bruce Lee, Years?

KPj-Your right about the kids in the U.K.

I dont know what it is these day's, maybe breakdown in the family unit or lack of respect for others, but they all hang around in groups and want trouble. ASBOS, what a joke, there concidered a badge of honor and kids under the age of 18 know they can quite literally get away with murder.

I'm glad guns are illegal in the U.K., sure some people have them and they get used, but imagine what it would be like if everyone had the right to bare arms here!

In Nottingham, you get searched before you go into a nightclub, metal detectors etc, so you cant take your Knuckle Duster with you, or a knife or gun. I dont think my wife would like it if i asked her to conceal my peice in her Bra. Hell! I got thrown out because wear Doctor Martins with Steel toe caps! :roll:

If your names Ice Cube, you probably need a gun, else do what most peolpe do and avoid the S#!7 in the first place. Dont get me wrong, if someone squares up to me, i'll assess if I can have a go, but i'll be on my toes if there's any doubt. If I see a group of lads when i'm walking down the street and they look like trouble, i'll go the other way. Pride comes before the fall as they say.

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Post by Matt Z » Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:56 pm

I agree that avoiding violence is generally the best course of action, however it's not always possible. Sometimes s**t happens, so it's worthwile to be prepared.

Likewise, I agree that the odds of being robbed, raped or murdered may be pretty low, but that won't matter if you or someone you love are among the unlucky ones.

PS) I was in an appartment building fire and got rear-ended by a 30-foot box truck in the same year. The odds that happening mush be very low, but it still happened, and there's not much I could have done to prevent either.

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Post by Matt Z » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:02 pm

"I'm glad guns are illegal in the U.K., sure some people have them and they get used, but imagine what it would be like if everyone had the right to bare arms here!" - Rik-Blades

It's interesting that while the UK recently surpassed the US in the overall rate of violent crimes, the US still has a signifigantly higher murder rate. This is often atributed to the greater availability of firearms here in the US. However, there are many other differences between the US and the UK that may be responsible. For example, organized street gangs are a major problem in many American cities where they contribute greatly to urban violence.

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Post by Matt Z » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:48 pm

Unlike traditional organized crime, most street gangs actively recruit juveniles. Sometimes children as young as 7 or 8 are used as couriers and lookouts. By the time these kids are 14 or 15 they're often hardened criminals with extensive juvenile records. However, the leaders are still adults, motivated mainly by profit.

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Post by KPj » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:27 am

Personally, I think criminals will use whatever is readily available to them...

Guns are becoming an increasing problem, especially in areas of London. In Scotland, gun crime seems to be pretty much restricted to organised crime.

The younger gangs, though, they just hang about looking for trouble just for the sake of it, fighting some meaningless battle with other younger gangs who have nothing better to do. They use whatever weapons they get their hands on. You get them in just about every town you come across, but some are worse than others. Knifes, bats, police battons, knuckle dusters etc - they pride themselves in their collection. Knifes especially. In Glasgow, there is one notorious shop that sells "hunting equipment" - you know, essential 'hunting equipment' like samurai swords and machetes. And blatant replica police battons and a whole host of extendable battons. Obviously you need these to 'hunt'. I know from when I was in school and friends were involved in a lot of that rubbish they would save up money and head up to Glasgow to go to this shop, just to buy weapons.

In my opinion, if there were gun shops, or guns were just a lot more readily available (like from their parents bedroom!), then they would deffinitly get their hands on them, and i've no doubt they would use them...

But that's looking at it from the pespective of the criminal, and trying to limit the damage they can do through strict laws. As opposed to the perspective of the potential victum who may feel much safer having a gun.... It's an interesting debate....

I personally, like Rik-Blades am quite glad guns are illegal here. Could be an overreaction but I reckon the place would turn into the wild west or something.

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Post by Matt Z » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:08 pm

I remember reading a while back that the number of crimes involving handguns in the UK has actually gone up since handgun ownership was banned.

It may just be a matter of time before youth gangs in the UK begin aquiring guns illegally. After all, if it's possible to smuggle drugs and people into a country, why not guns. Meanwhile, as time goes by, some of these gangs may become more organized and start moving into crimes like drug trafficing and extortion.

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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
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Post by Matt Z » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:18 pm

PS) As many US states have legalized concealed carry over the past two decades, many opponents have predicted this would lead to widespread violence. However in state after state these predictions have proven false.


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