Two Quick Questions

Ask or answer questions, discuss and express your views

Moderators: Ironman, Jungledoc, darshana, stuward

tyler
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:24 pm

Two Quick Questions

Post by tyler » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:00 am

I don't go to a gym to workout, and don't have a barbell set, so I am forced to work out at home very creatively. I do alot of bodyweight exercises (with weight added through the form of a backpack, me holding it, and my dip belt), I have dumbells that can be loaded with plates, and plenty of room outdoors to work out with. I have an upper body routine that I think is pretty good, but I am somewhat concerned about my leg routine. I do have a trunk which I can put alot of the plates in and use for deadlifting...which is such a difference when u are using a more practical object than a barbell. I also do lunges and overhead squats with my dumbells, but am thinking of adding a couple of isolation exercises.

Anyone think sissy squats, hyperextenstion and reverse hyperextenstions are good isolations of the legs?

And...sissy squats look sort of bad since your knees go way beyond ur toes, which I have heard is a bad thing. Anyone have any knowledge of downfalls with sissy squats?

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:56 am

What is supposed to be so bad about the knees getting in front of the toes? I've heard it said that you shouldn't do it, but never any reason. I recently read an article (one of those "Seven Myths of Weight Lifting" sort of articles on T-Nation) where one of the well-respected coaches said that it isn't really any big deal. Much more important that the shoulders and the bar be above the center of the feet. I'll find it and post a link.

I also saw something about sissy squats, which I can probably find again, too.

User avatar
TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
Posts: 3129
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Va Beach, Va

Post by TimD » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:53 am

Have never really heard anything bad about sissy squats. Vince Gironda swore by them. Also, a lot of the old timers used to do the "deep knee bend on toes" as a staple to be alternated with regular squats. Reverse hypers and hypers are great.
Tim

Matt Z
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4505
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by Matt Z » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:20 pm

Alowing your knees to shift too far foreward while doing Barbell Back Squats is supposed to increase stresses on the knees. However, Sissy Squats are a completely different exercise. One obvious difference is that with Sissy Squats you don't have a heavy barbell across your shoulders. Also with Sissy Squats your heels are supposed to come off the ground, which would be very bad form on Barbell Back Squats.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:18 pm

Matt Z wrote:Alowing your knees to shift too far foreward while doing Barbell Back Squats is supposed to increase stresses on the knees.
But how? The angle of the knee is only slightly more acute at the bottom than it would be otherwise. That "rule" still doesn't make sense to me.

Matt Z
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 4505
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by Matt Z » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:58 pm

Like I said, "supposed to." I've never seen any real proof either. But either way, Sissy Squats are another exercise entirely.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:49 pm

Here's the link about knees behind toes rule. It's not a big-time coach, but he quotes both Poloquin and Rippetoe for support.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... onceptions

Here's the link about sissy squats:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ssy_squats

User avatar
nygmen
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm
Location: Mass, USA

Post by nygmen » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:56 pm

Sorry for the Hijack, but T-Nation kind of scares me a little.

Maybe I'm just a wussy...

tyler
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:24 pm

Post by tyler » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:27 pm

Sissy Squats are like the only isolation exercise for quads aside from machines like leg extenstion...which is obviously not an option. Besides, I hate leg exts on machine anyways.

Hamstrings and glutes would seem to offer more options...but I am wondering if i should do the isolations before or after the bigger lifts? With upper body it seems that isolation should be done afterwards...but lower body can handle so much more weight that it could go either way...espeically when u don't have a barbell set of 250 lbs or more to work out with. I am thinking of doing isolation before the more compound moves.

User avatar
Jungledoc
moderator
moderator
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea

Post by Jungledoc » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:03 am

nygmen wrote:Sorry for the Hijack, but T-Nation kind of scares me a little.

Maybe I'm just a wussy...
Scares you in what way?

User avatar
nygmen
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm
Location: Mass, USA

Post by nygmen » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:30 pm

Jungledoc wrote:
nygmen wrote:Sorry for the Hijack, but T-Nation kind of scares me a little.

Maybe I'm just a wussy...
Scares you in what way?
The open discussion of "gear" for one. (I just found out what that means yesterday.) It leads me to now fully understand there is an entire society of intelligent people who do and know things I honestly thought was mostly speculation and the media hyped up. I had no idea the interest and rampant widespread use evidenced by the mass knowledge. There is a "beginners" article.

The truth scared me. I honestly believe in a 'to each his own, as long as your not messing up my day' way of life. These guys don't effect me, but its scary how wrapped up I was in this one's guys thread about his ridiculous stack. Call me old fashioned I just though gear was the elephant in the room no one talked about openly except for philosophical beliefs and PAST use, not 'hey watch me juice for the next 4 weeks, here is some pics too.'

And dude WTF is oil? No, I don't want to know, but wait I do. Get it? Society tells me it's bad, but the geek in me wants to know what is going on there. Like when I was in middle school, found my parents stash, and spent the next day's study hall in the library asking the woman for books on drugs and drug use. I must have looked insane.

Number two would be the people on the forums, well the ones I was so entertained by, are ruthless and young at that. A bunch of vicious 300lb seventeen year old kids that can bench my car walking around is all I can think of. Their general attitude towards others, internet or not, and views on life, make me fear for the future of this country and world. I don't think these kids attitudes had anything to do with gear either. (God I love that word now, its good line from a movie to me now.) I think today's middle youth is seriously angry about something and I fear I don't get it.

But then again I didn't read any of the informative articles, you know where the value is, I played around in the Jerry Springer threads for a laugh, and got a jolt instead.

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Post by KPj » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:32 am

nygmen wrote: Call me old fashioned I just thought gear was the elephant in the room no one talked about.
Thats the beauty of T-Nation (aside from the information and products). They don't pretend that things don't exist. Steroids are a big part of performance and sport whether people care to admit it or not. They're a huge part of bodybuilding. 'Natural' competeing bodybuilders are in the minority. One reason they don't interview many Bodybuilders is because they expect them to be honest about steriod use, which they're not prepared to do. You should go with your gut and learn some more about Steriods- you'll be surprised how much of what you think you know is just media hype. I don't advise it, but I don't have any issues with people who use or have used them. Also, previouse articles have explained that the 'beginners' thread on gear is simply to allow people to use it properly. Half the controversy with steroids is that people abuse them.

Sort of like half the alleged 'bad' exercises. They're not bad, they are just being performed incorrectly.

I think the following article gives a good insight to what T-nation is all about (from a more tongue in cheek perspective). I'm sure you've seen this guy on TV before, it's an entertaining read.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... dybuilding


KPj

Kenny Croxdale
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:18 am

Jungledoc wrote:What is supposed to be so bad about the knees getting in front of the toes?


There is definitely "Shear Force" on the knees when the knee is driven forward toward the toes in a movement.

I injured my right knee when I was younger. I now find that when my knee is driven forward toward the toes in a movement, I have pain in that knee.

In working with others who have knee problems, I have found that quite a few of those individual experience pain when performing a movement in which the knee is driven forward toward the toes.

What works for myself and others who experience knee problems from the "Shear Force" of driving the knees forward is to NOT do this.

Performing exercises that keep the knee perpendicular to the "floor" eliminate this problem.

Example Exercises:
1) Squats in which you push you butt back and keep you shins perpendicular to the floor.
2) Lunges in which you step back keeps your knees perpendicular to the floor.
3) The Cybex "Squat Press" movement arcs in such a way that it keeps you knees perpendicular to the "floor" of the leg press.
I've heard it said that you shouldn't do it, but never any reason. I recently read an article (one of those "Seven Myths of Weight Lifting" sort of articles on T-Nation) where one of the well-respected coaches said that it isn't really any big deal.


Driving the knees forward is a big deal if it makes you knees hurt.

With that said, for many individuals movements in which the kness are driven fowrard is not an issue.

One of my friends, Don Davis, performs a lot of leg exercises in which he drive his knees forward. Don never has had any knee problems.

Another interesting point is that "knee torque" is reduced by 22% when you pushing back and keep your knees perpendicular to the floor. That's the good news.

The bad news is that there is a "1070% increase in hip torque" when you push your butt back to keep you knees perpendicular to the floor.That is why you find many wide stand powerlifters who complain about sore hips, hip pain. http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybui ... hs_exposed

Roseanne Roseanna-Dana (Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live) was right, "It just goes to show you, it's always something! If it's not one thing, it's another!"

The bottom line is as you doctors say is, "If it hurts, Don't Do It!"

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am

Post by Kenny Croxdale » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:21 am

tyler wrote:Sissy Squats are like the only isolation exercise for quads
Sissy Squat is not an isolation exercise. It does target the quads.
I hate leg exts on machine anyways.
Leg Extensions are a worthless exercise.

Kenny Croxdale

KPj
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am

Post by KPj » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:38 am

I'm just recovering from a knee injury. When it was bad, all lower body exercises hurt it. But front squats and anything that required more dorsiflexion (knees moving over toes) was a killer. So far, I can now back squat, OH squat, and forward lunge with knee going over toes, pain free and feeling good. Front Squats will be tested on Friday, for the first time in almost 4 months.

I'm very confident. To be honest I sneaked in a few reps with a light weight last week and it felt good.

I'm a firm believer in 'if it hurts, don't do it!'. However, i'm an even firmer believer of, 'if it hurts, get it fixed!'. Now, there's obviously certain conditions that are going to make increased pressure on the knee painful regardless of what you do, such as quite badly damaged cartilage (things that can't really be repaired).

However, I believe that in most cases, there's an underlying issues that CAN be fixed. I know (and train with) PL'ers who squat 500lbs+ and can barely do a single lunge. No exaggeration. I'm actually extremely surprised that they DON'T have hip pain, or knee, back, or shoulder pain. These guys are among the most out of balance people i've seen. And they're strong as hell. Point is that because someone is strong, it doesn't make them healthy.

My problem was a glute med weakness on one side. Now, i'm not the strongest, but my DL is just over 2.5x bodyweight, and squat trailing a little behind that (well, it was). So it's bizarre to think that I had weak glutes? Well, I did. And before I seen a physiotherapist I could already do full ROM pistols, trained in multi movement planes, and was very aware of being in 'balance'. My physio said in 20+ years he's maybe had 2 people that have came to him and been able to do what he asked me, and those were athletes with shoulder injuries. I'm not one to boast, what i'm trying to say is - You may THINK you're unique in some way that makes you (you=anyone) an exception to the rule but you probably won't be. The hips look after the knees. It's scary just how much control the hips have over your knees. in fact - the hips have direct control over your knees.

A good friend that I trained with declared to me a while ago that "sumo DL's are bad for your knees, they give me knee pain". No, "your knees are bad for sumo DL's". I urged him to fix it, to cut a long story short, and he ignored me. Within the next few months he got knee pain in everything bar rack pulls (hardly any dorsiflexion). When he let me check him out, he had a weak glute med on both sides, more so on one side. Also an external rotation discrepancy on one side. Over active TFL, and weak psoas. He's quite a strong guy, too. He's completely pain free in everything now (his pain wasn't as severe).

I know this is quite long winded, but it honestly pains me to hear that someone can't squat or whatever due to pain some where. As I said, there's injuries or conditions that will warrent restrictions for the rest of your lifting career, but things can always either get fixed or at the very least, improve. My gripe here is that bizarely, when people experience pain or get injured, they seem to think they function just fine. I was exactly the same. My physiotherapist gave me the kick in the a$$ that i needed - a wake up call.

Anyway, it must be, like, 4 days or something since i've written a very long post, so here ya go! In short - knees over toes is fine. If it's not, get it fixed or at least work out what's going on (via a specialist)..

KPj

Post Reply