jogging after workout

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Post by stuward » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:16 am

ironmaiden708 wrote:
(was it Chris-something)
I believe you would be referring to Chris_A, there were many (some* pointless) arguments on here when he was a regular poster.
Chris made some good contributions and just because his point of view was different that some of ours, doesn't mean his arguments were pointless. To be fair there were a couple of toys that were pretty pointless.


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Post by Jungledoc » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:11 am

tyler wrote:Oh my...I can't believe you are all rising up against me. Jungledoc, you said jogging is an inefficent means for cardiovascular health. True that you didn't say some of the stuff I said, but when you say "jogging is for people who like to jog." And "it is an inefficent means for cardiovascular health"...it is obvious your opinion of running is incredibly low. That in my opinion is like completely bashing the thing it is best at. And for some reason, some of you don't consider it aerobic exercise. First off, I can be jogging, throw in a sprint, and then still jog afterwards. What would you call it then? Second off, running is to aerobic exercise as lifting weights is to resistance training. It the the primary way of improving cardiovascular fitness. Sure, not the only way, and people tend not to only run. Just as some use pulleys, dumbbells, and machines to train their muscles, others bike, climb, row, or whatever for their heart. But not realizing that jogging should be your bread and butter...and then acting like I'm some kind of crazied idiot...well...let's just say I can understand why this "Chris_A" might not post if people are without that much common sense here.
No one's "rising up against you." No need to take anything personally--it certainly isn't intended that way.

When I said that "jogging is for people who like to jog" I was not saying that my opinion of running is low. All I was saying was that people who don't enjoy running shouldn't feel obligated to jog. Many people seem to think that jogging is the only aerobic exercise that they could do. If you don't like doing it, there are hundreds of other things that you can do. If running is what you are good at, that's great. Just don't make others feel like they have to do it in order to be considered fit.

And I don't think anyone is saying that jogging isn't aerobic exercise! I'm saying that it is, but that it isn't the only aerobic exercise, or even the best.

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Post by brook011 » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:49 am

Holy crap, it was a joke about jogging being for ladies. I honestly believe if you're going to do something, do it hard, so HIIT would be far better than jogging around in sweatpants. And it can be accomplished in 15-20 minutes so you're not putting all that extra prolonged stress on yourself.

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Post by Ironman » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:44 pm

Stu, you have to admit Chris made very few good contributions and mostly spouted off lots of mythology with plenty of evidence proving it was just that.

Jungledoc, Ryan, I think you are absolutely right.

Tyler, jogging is maybe ok for thin out of shape people with no knee problems just to get a start. However for fat people, it is likely to be too hard on the knees like any running. For people without those problems, such as myself, it is a nice way to recover in between sprints, but that is about it. As Jungledoc said, there are WAY better ways to work your heart and lungs. Jogging and running seem great to you, because you like it. So it is a very good thing for you. However for someone who doesn't like it, it is not going to be too useful.

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um

Post by CoreAlex » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:42 pm

I still dont get it though, is the workout im doing now going to help or hurt me? but right now it seems to be making me a lot lighter i havent tested my strength to the max yet so i dont know


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Post by TheHeb » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:57 pm

tyler wrote:And for some reason, some of you don't consider it aerobic exercise.
I don't think anyone here said that.
tyler wrote:First off, I can be jogging, throw in a sprint, and then still jog afterwards. What would you call it then?
HIIT probably. Or Jogging/sprinting/jogging. If I bench pressed, ran a marathon, and then benched again, I think it would be misleading to say that I just finished a bench press workout.
tyler wrote:Second off, running is to aerobic exercise as lifting weights is to resistance training. It the the primary way of improving cardiovascular fitness. Sure, not the only way, and people tend not to only run. Just as some use pulleys, dumbbells, and machines to train their muscles, others bike, climb, row, or whatever for their heart.


I think what people are saying is that jogging shouldn't be the primary way of improving cardiovascular fitness. Weight training improves cardiovascular fitness. Remember the distinction between aerobic and anaerobic is not cardiovascular but metabolic (with or without oxygen).

Also, I don't think jogging should be the number one way of improving aerobic fitness. Yes people primarily do it, but there are better ways to achieve the same result. Using the weight training analogy: people primarily use machines, but free weights are still better

tyler wrote:But not realizing that jogging should be your bread and butter...and then acting like I'm some kind of crazied idiot...well...let's just say I can understand why this "Chris_A" might not post if people are without that much common sense here.
It's not fair to say that people lack common sense because they don't agree that jogging should be their bread and butter. For one lots of people don't enjoy it. Two, their "bread and butter" depends on their goals. And three, there are better ways of improving cardiovascular and aerobic fitness than jogging.

I find that people here have great common sense, and that they're not dogmatic. That is why I like to come here and read the threads. I think Chris_A in most instances was quite the opposite, and he also committed lots fallacies, especially attacking straw men. When someone disagreed with him, he usually failed to address their actual arguments. It was pretty frustrating.

Please understand that I'm not attacking you, and that I'm sorry if you take it that way. I just think you're missing the points people here are making (and sometimes its hard for posters to make their points clear on the internet).

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Re: um

Post by drummaniac » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:03 pm

CoreAlex wrote:I still dont get it though, is the workout im doing now going to help or hurt me? but right now it seems to be making me a lot lighter i havent tested my strength to the max yet so i dont know
It will hurt you. Atleast that much will. What that group is doing is way over training. You have to decide whether you want to train for muscle size and strength or cardio endurance. Doing both that much that intenesly will get you no where. Jogging a mile once or twice a week while lifting is fine but that much is insane.

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Post by TheHeb » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:05 pm

CoreAlex.

It sounds from one of your other posts that you're into MMA? There's a poster here, pdellorto who has been doing it for a long time, I think. You might want to private message him and see what he thinks.

I don't know a lot about MMA, but it seems to have common physical requirements with boxing and wrestling. If that's the case, I would think that sprinting or HIIT would be better than a long jog.

Also, a lot of the people on this site are of the opinion (and I agree) that arbitrary body part splits are no good (although it's not entirely clear from your post that that is how you're doing it). But if you're working out with a group of people you might be locked into.

From what I've read, for most athletes it's better to do fewer, more complicated compound exercises as opposed to more isolation exercises, and that it's better to do it in a shorter amount of time (a common time I've seen is an hour).

Like I said I don't know the exact physical requirements of MMA, but I hope that this advice helps you somewhat.

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Post by tyler » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:07 pm

If we are making a distinction between jogging and running, jogging being slow and running being fast, then I meant running, not jogging. But when
I tell people I'm going on a jog, I don't necessarily mean a very leisure pace, its just a general term I use for running. And I'm not sure who made the marathon and bench press analogy, but that makes no sense, because they aren't even in the same field. A pushup/bench press/ then pushup analogy might make sense, pushups being endurance and bench press being strength, and then calling it a chest workout, just as a run/sprint/run analogy makes sense calling it a cardio workout because it would be endurance/explosiveness/endurance.

Jungledoc, and some others I seemed upset at, I apologize. But callin running for ladies...well...now u see why most women don't come and lift weights as they should, because some people think its only for men...

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Post by pdellorto » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:19 pm

TheHeb wrote:It sounds from one of your other posts that you're into MMA? There's a poster here, pdellorto who has been doing it for a long time, I think. You might want to private message him and see what he thinks.
I'm actually not clear on what sport CoreAlex is training for. I know Lightningsix does Muay Thai a few days a week.

MMA isn't a marathon, it's a series of sprints of undetermined length.

FWIW, the fighters in my gym in Japan almost all did roadwork. BUT, an important note is that my coach insisted people mix sprints in with their jogging. He said, basically, if you aren't sprinting, and you aren't running fast enough to get your heart rate up, you aren't training.

On the other hand, I don't know if any of the fighters at my US gym jog. I know one person mentioned he was going to do jogging as cardio, and the coach suggested running stadium stairs instead. Most of the fighters seem to get their "cardio" from training to fight.

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Post by Ironman » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:31 pm

tyler wrote:If we are making a distinction between jogging and running, jogging being slow and running being fast, then I meant running, not jogging. But when
I tell people I'm going on a jog, I don't necessarily mean a very leisure pace, its just a general term I use for running. And I'm not sure who made the marathon and bench press analogy, but that makes no sense, because they aren't even in the same field. A pushup/bench press/ then pushup analogy might make sense, pushups being endurance and bench press being strength, and then calling it a chest workout, just as a run/sprint/run analogy makes sense calling it a cardio workout because it would be endurance/explosiveness/endurance.

Jungledoc, and some others I seemed upset at, I apologize. But callin running for ladies...well...now u see why most women don't come and lift weights as they should, because some people think its only for men...
That comment was obviously joke.

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confused

Post by CoreAlex » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:28 pm

im confused, how can this hurt you its 2 completely different things. Wieight lifting is to get stronger and jogging is to gain oxygen. i don see how this is overtraining. I would understand if people say 4 hours of lifting is bad because thats just one thing but an hour of lifting and an hour of jogging cant be bad for you can it cause they different? can somone explain to me the science of it?

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Post by CoreAlex » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:40 pm

haha i realy am confused i just realized that in the past 3 weeks, ive had 12 different routines lasting about 3 days each. its kinda cool tho cause my body got used to it all but i need one solid routine would u guys mind if i post up my entire routine for this week up now so u guys can tell me what im doing wrong? its going to be a very long list tho

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Re: jogging after workout

Post by Jungledoc » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:19 am

CoreAlex wrote:Guys i know this sounds funny but i resently joined this intense workout team and the thing is their workouts are wierd. Its basicaly like tihis, we jog 1 mile before lifting then we lift for 1 hour and 30 minutes with intensity like we basicaly do every single exercise possible in that 1 hour and 30 minutes for whichever body part we working example-monday= chest, shoulder, traps, tris, and right after lifting we go straight to a 3 mile jog. also on wednesday and saturday we dont lift we do jogging and conditioning with ab work. is this reasonable? I havent seen the benefits yet since its only my 3rd day but my stomach looking pretty small
I decided to actually look back at your original post to see what the real issues are, since I (along with a few others) have gotten a bit side-tracked. Sorry.

Here are my reactions. First, 1 mile before the main workout doesn't seem to me either particularly good or bad. Other things could be used, but 1 mile of jogging doesn't seem harmful.

Second, an hour and a half workout seems long to me. Honestly, my workouts last this long, but because they are either poorly-planned, or because I spend too much time resting. Everything I have read and heard from knowledgeable people says that anything over 45 to 60 minutes starts to be (at least potentially) counter-productive. It seems that our output of anabolic hormones in response to intense exercise is limited to about an hour. After this the levels fall off, leaving the exercise less and less effective.

Third, 3 miles of jogging after the resistance workout sounds bad to me (I have no experience here, as you might surmise from my previous posts). After your workout, your energy stores are (or should be) depleted. At the very time that you want your body to be putting your muscles back together, stronger than before, your body would be continuing to drain energy that is needed for the process.

So with running maybe 10 minutes, then 1 1/2 hr. in the gym, and then another 30-40 minutes of running, thats nearly 2 hours. I used to train 2 to 3 hours every evening (sometimes after 30-45 minutes in the weight room earlier in the day--I had not heard of "recovery") for several weeks before testing, but that was not all intense, with time spent on kata, or on teaching others, etc. Still, that probably was not the wisest way to train.

My suggestions for your group are that the main workout be limited to 1 hour, and that the cardio work be moved to a different time of day, or just to different days. That would allow the cardio time to be spent on more intense conditioning, as opposed to just jogging.

Is this a MMA group? Is there a leader who is really knowledgeable? Or is it the self-appointed guy who has his own ideas about how to train? In my MA (not MMA, just MA) days, my teacher was largely self-taught, and although a lot of what he taught was valuable, there were also a lot of misconceptions that were passed along. I distrust a "one-size-fits-all" approach.

Just my ramblings. Hope it helps you think about the issues involved.

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Post by TheHeb » Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:19 am

tyler wrote:And I'm not sure who made the marathon and bench press analogy, but that makes no sense, because they aren't even in the same field. A pushup/bench press/ then pushup analogy might make sense, pushups being endurance and bench press being strength, and then calling it a chest workout, just as a run/sprint/run analogy makes sense calling it a cardio workout because it would be endurance/explosiveness/endurance.
I didn't create the analogy to compare a bench press/marathon workout to a jog/sprint workout; I came up with it as a response to this:
tyler wrote:First off, I can be jogging, throw in a sprint, and then still jog afterwards. What would you call it then?
It's obvious now that you're referring to running in general, and not jogging specifically. So yes you can jog and sprint and call it running, and say that the benefits you derive from both activities are due to running.

But in defense of my logic, at the time that wasn't clear. The question you asked was clearly rhetorical, and it seemed to me that you were saying that you could jog/sprint/jog for the benefits of both, but still call it "jogging." But the thing is you can't, and that's the point I was trying to make; if you do that you're actually doing two different things. You cannot attribute the benefits of the sprint to jogging just because you did it in between the jogging. Likewise, you cannot attribute the benefits of running a marathon to bench pressing just you ran it in between bench pressing.

Anyways I guess it doesn't matter because there was just a misunderstanding over the words running and jogging.

EDIT: Sorry to the OP (and others) if I derailed the thread.


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