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Full Body Workout and lateral delts.

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:41 am
by Han
Hi guys,

As detailed in my previous thread http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28959#28959 I have recently changed to a full body workout (please ignore stuff-up re: starting strength comment).

I put the workout together based on what I could cobble together from this site and others, focussing on compound movements. It seems most full body workouts don't really target the lateral delts much though. Prior to switching I used to often do upright rows and am wondering if there is any place for them in a FB workout.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Cheers,
Han

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:42 am
by Rik-Blades
Can you post your full body routine here, so we can have a look?
We can then see where it may be deficient.

You may be working them indirectly without even knowing it.

Re: Full Body Workout and lateral delts.

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:08 pm
by Stephen Johnson
Han wrote:I put the workout together based on what I could cobble together from this site and others, focussing on compound movements. It seems most full body workouts don't really target the lateral delts much though. Prior to switching I used to often do upright rows and am wondering if there is any place for them in a FB workout.
That's true - most full body routines don't hit the lateral delts that well. The anterior delts are worked in presses and the posterior delts are worked with rows, but the lateral delts are the odd man out.

You can add lateral raises to work the lateral delts in isolation. Or you can add compound exercises like upright rows (or power cleans or high pulls) to your routine.

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:40 pm
by jeffrerr
Just had a look at your FB workout and with Military Press in there you should be fine as the Lateral Delt is one of the main Synergists of this exercise!

But are you actuall doing a Military Press or a Shoulder Press?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Press.html

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Press.html

As you can see in the links the Shoulder Press has the Lateral Delt higher in the list of Synergists meaning it is hit more so than in the Military Press!

Just something to have a think about!

John

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:45 pm
by NorCal707
Have you thought about throwing some handstands or handstand push ups in there to get the shoulders? Or switching to shoulder press or a clean and press?

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:54 pm
by Stephen Johnson
jeffrerr wrote:Just had a look at your FB workout and with Military Press in there you should be fine as the Lateral Delt is one of the main Synergists of this exercise!

But are you actuall doing a Military Press or a Shoulder Press?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Press.html

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Press.html

As you can see in the links the Shoulder Press has the Lateral Delt higher in the list of Synergists meaning it is hit more so than in the Military Press!

Just something to have a think about!
I have my doubts that a muscle that is only trained as a synergist will reach its full potential.

And if you're interested in training the lateral delt via the overhead press route, behind the neck presses are the best option.

Also, it is almost always better to do overhead presses standing than seated. Standing overhead presses are a full body exercise that will improve your posture and your balance when they are done correctly. Seated overhead presses are much easier to spot, but that's their only advantage.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:39 am
by Jungledoc
So what's the difference between a "shoulder press" and a "military press"? Surely not whether one is sitting or standing, since we have "seated military press" and "shoulder press" demonstrated in the standing position. On Wikipedia there is a reference to "Military press: heels together." Could it be that I haven't been doing a military press because I use a shoulder-width stance?

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:22 am
by jeffrerr
Stephen Johnson wrote:I have my doubts that a muscle that is only trained as a synergist will reach its full potential.

And if you're interested in training the lateral delt via the overhead press route, behind the neck presses are the best option.

Also, it is almost always better to do overhead presses standing than seated. Standing overhead presses are a full body exercise that will improve your posture and your balance when they are done correctly. Seated overhead presses are much easier to spot, but that's their only advantage.
Sorry Stephen but I personally don't think a "full body" program needs to incorporate isolations exercises for the lateral delt if it's being utilised already as a major synergist!

You also mention the Behind the Neck press which is also done seated and has the lateral delt as the major synergist? IMHO the behind neck press is for more advanced trainees, not for beginers, it's far too easy to get yourself in trouble with bad technique!

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:24 am
by jeffrerr
Han,

In you program you have "DB Rows".

Are these uprigt, bent over or lying?

John

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:55 am
by Stephen Johnson
jeffrerr wrote:[I personally don't think a "full body" program needs to incorporate isolations exercises for the lateral delt if it's being utilised already as a major synergist!
1 - Upright rows, power cleans and high pulls are not isolation exercises.

2 - The full body workout templates listed here include optional side deltoid work. For some people, not targeting the lateral delt directly will result in that bodypart lagging the other two heads of the deltoid.

The bodybuilder Larry Scott, who has a narrow frame, was able to build his shoulders to championship proportions by working on his side deltoids. He achieved this with a combination of overhead presses AND lateral raises.
jeffrerr wrote:You also mention the Behind the Neck press which is also done seated and has the lateral delt as the major synergist? IMHO the behind neck press is for more advanced trainees, not for beginers, it's far too easy to get yourself in trouble with bad technique!
1 - Behind the neck presses can be done both standing and seated. Olympic athletes do them standing.

2 - You will get better results in your lateral deltoid from behind the neck presses than you will from presses done in front of the neck. What you say about the risk of behind the neck pressing is true. Which is why it is better to use a specific side deltoid exercise if you're starting out.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:59 am
by Han
Thanks for the responses guys, here are a few answers:

Jeffrer: I'm doing a standing military press. I know the lateral delts are listed as a synergist, but they certainly don't feel like they get much of a workout. Also the DB Rows are bent-over. Although these have been in my workouts for a long time now so I'm going to change to something else soon (yet to be decided).

Stephen: I'm currently overhead pressing only 3x10x55lbs so I've been avoiding the behind the neck press - I imagine it's a bit harder?

On a side note - is this a bit of an imbalance if I can bench press 3x10x100lbs?

Looks like I may have to bite the bullet and start learning the power cleans soon. The other thing I am considering is a complex I learned when I used to do a lot of Les Mills' Body Pump classes. It's a standing clean/upright row type movement followed by a military press. Or possibly it's more of a push press. Hopefully this is clear.

Han

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:09 am
by Han
Oh and here is my workout for those who can't be bothered clicking to the other thread. All 3x10.

Workout A:
Front Squats (just experimenting here, have been doing back squats for ages)
BB Bent Row
BB Bench Press
Assisted Pull Ups
DB Incline Bench

Workout B:
BB Dead Lift
Military Press
Assisted Pull Ups
Close Grip Bench
DB Bent-Rows
Calf Press (I know not strictly necessary, but I have chicken legs).

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:23 am
by Stephen Johnson
Han wrote: I'm currently overhead pressing only 3x10x55lbs so I've been avoiding the behind the neck press - I imagine it's a bit harder?

On a side note - is this a bit of an imbalance if I can bench press 3x10x100lbs?

Looks like I may have to bite the bullet and start learning the power cleans soon. The other thing I am considering is a complex I learned when I used to do a lot of Les Mills' Body Pump classes. It's a standing clean/upright row type movement followed by a military press. Or possibly it's more of a push press.
1 - Behind the neck presses are harder for most people, since they require more shoulder flexibility.

2 - Most people can bench more than they can overhead press. You should try to improve your overhead press to where you're lifting 65-70% of what you bench.

3 - Either power cleans or complexes sound like a good addition to your routine if you're really concerned about developing your side deltoid.
Han wrote:Hopefully this is clear.
Very clear. The best of luck with your training.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:52 am
by TimD
Full body routines can includ isolations. Just depends on how you structur them. I have a couple of Javorek's General conditioning programs that are full body, 3X week, 12 weejs long, and no two workouts are ever the same One day might accentuate the legs, with lunges, squats and some but very little presing , Another might focus MOSTLY on upper back / shoulder girdle, etc, with some lateral delt stuff thrown in.

As to complexes, you sound like you have a good one, Han. Here is one from Javorek that would definately get at your lateral delts, along with posterior chain and upper back shoulder girdle.
Upright row + muscle snatch (highpull snatch) + squat - pushpress behind the neck combo+ good mornings + row. All done for 6 reps, no rest between exercises. Can find a description on youtube. Search for Javorek's Barbell complexes. This one might be good on a light day inbetween your A and B to shore up things ou don't get in the other two. BTW, this, and the complex you mentioned are full body workouts in their own right.
Tim

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:00 am
by Han
Sounds like a great complex TimD. Thanks for that. I'm thinking I'll throw a few of those in after my HIIT once a week. My week will then look like this:

M: Full Body A
T: HIIT (no complexes)
W: Off
T: Full Body B
F: Off
S: HIIT (with some light Javorek complexes)
S: Off

Han