"Alternative" medicine

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anandsr21
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Post by anandsr21 » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:23 am

Homeopathy and our local forms Unani and Ayurvedic medicines are quite cheap in India compared to the Western ones. But you need to have some faith in the alternative medicine practitioner.

A lot of good comes from using spices for different ailments. They have been known to work over generations. Eg using turmeric as a pain relief ( can be eaten or simply applied), unfortunately it leaves very bad stains if not used properly ;-).


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Jungledoc
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Post by Jungledoc » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:52 am

jeffrerr wrote:As a western medicine nurse, if a doctor of a patient in my care did not restrict their diet when treating ulcers I would advise the patient to proceed with a malpractice suit! No doctor I have ever been to or worked with would be that dumb, maybe it's India or maybe it's Australian docs being on top of the issue as I don't know what happens in the US and UK or other developed countries!

And I do agree with the first part of your statement about homeopathy, that it can sometimes relieve stress from outside factors and therefore create a better healing environment in the body due to the decrease stress! Especially with stomach ulcers, as there has been anecdotal links between emotional and physical stress and over production of stomach enzymes which inflame stomach ulcers, however I've not seen any scientific evidence on it yet, not that I'm suggesting it's not out there, but that I just haven't read it if it is!

Anyway I see this like religion and my opinion of religion is that I don't believe in it for myself but I have no issue with those that choose religion! As long as they don't try to force it on me of course, but I don't think there are Accupunturist Witnesses who knock on the door and try to give you printed material on the topic, is there? :)
How would you have wanted the doctor to restrict the diet? Up until about 1980 everyone thought that diet had something to do with the cause of ulcers. It doesn't. Ulcers are an infectious disease caused by the bacterium heliobacter pylori. That was an Australian discovery, I'm surprised you don't know that.

Were you taught that giving legal advice is within the purview of the practice of nursing?

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Post by jeffrerr » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:09 am

Jungledoc wrote: How would you have wanted the doctor to restrict the diet? Up until about 1980 everyone thought that diet had something to do with the cause of ulcers. It doesn't. Ulcers are an infectious disease caused by the bacterium heliobacter pylori. That was an Australian discovery, I'm surprised you don't know that.

Were you taught that giving legal advice is within the purview of the practice of nursing?
1) Yes H. Pylori is the culprit of Ulcers, but they are still affected pain wise by increased acidity in stomach until they are healed over. To suggest that an increase in stomach acidity wouldn't cause increased pain to a stomach ulcer is like saying that when you have an open mouth ulcer eating lemon juice won't casue an increase in pain.

2) I would not be giving 'legal advice', giving 'legal advice' would be to give them counsel once a case had already been put forward. Making a patient aware of their legal rights is definitely within the scope of nursing and in the course of causing a patient undue pain, though the case would likely be thrown out, it would make the doctor think twice next time! Not mention I was using it as more of a metaphor than a statement about how I would practice in a real world setting, we don't actually sue that often in Australia!

John

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Post by ballophun » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:24 am

Wow I've sure incited a bit of discussion here. I think it's unfortunate that if it's not been scientifically proven, people are unwilling to try it. You got so much more to gain than to lose.

Anyway back to the discussion. Star Trek or Star Wars?

STAR WARS!!!

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Post by Jungledoc » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:59 pm

jeffrerr wrote:
Jungledoc wrote: How would you have wanted the doctor to restrict the diet? Up until about 1980 everyone thought that diet had something to do with the cause of ulcers. It doesn't. Ulcers are an infectious disease caused by the bacterium heliobacter pylori. That was an Australian discovery, I'm surprised you don't know that.

Were you taught that giving legal advice is within the purview of the practice of nursing?
1) Yes H. Pylori is the culprit of Ulcers, but they are still affected pain wise by increased acidity in stomach until they are healed over. To suggest that an increase in stomach acidity wouldn't cause increased pain to a stomach ulcer is like saying that when you have an open mouth ulcer eating lemon juice won't casue an increase in pain.

2) I would not be giving 'legal advice', giving 'legal advice' would be to give them counsel once a case had already been put forward. Making a patient aware of their legal rights is definitely within the scope of nursing and in the course of causing a patient undue pain, though the case would likely be thrown out, it would make the doctor think twice next time! Not mention I was using it as more of a metaphor than a statement about how I would practice in a real world setting, we don't actually sue that often in Australia!

John
Sheesh. There is no issue of "increased stomach acid." The stomach is extremely acidic under normal circumstances, and there isn't a food that can change that. The "acidic foods" are a drop in the bucked as far as the acid that is already produced in the stomach. The pathology is a change in the stomach's protection from the acid. Temporarily decreasing the production of acid with medicines while the ulcer is healing is an essential treatment method, but can't be accomplished with any diet restrictions.

So you are saying that, based on your own ignorance, you would advise someone to potentially destroy some doctor's career. I've been on the receiving end of that, and believe me, it's hell. And no, it wouldn't make a doctor think twice next time. They already think twice, three times, four times. They take extra precautions, run extra, sometimes unnecessary tests because there are health care "professionals" out there giving this kind of misguided advice to people.


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Post by jeffrerr » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:18 am

Jungledoc wrote: Sheesh. There is no issue of "increased stomach acid." The stomach is extremely acidic under normal circumstances, and there isn't a food that can change that. The "acidic foods" are a drop in the bucked as far as the acid that is already produced in the stomach. The pathology is a change in the stomach's protection from the acid. Temporarily decreasing the production of acid with medicines while the ulcer is healing is an essential treatment method, but can't be accomplished with any diet restrictions.

So you are saying that, based on your own ignorance, you would advise someone to potentially destroy some doctor's career. I've been on the receiving end of that, and believe me, it's hell. And no, it wouldn't make a doctor think twice next time. They already think twice, three times, four times. They take extra precautions, run extra, sometimes unnecessary tests because there are health care "professionals" out there giving this kind of misguided advice to people.
So if you were giving someone an analgesic for a toe that had had a weigth dropped on it would you then be totally fine with them going out and hitting the toe with a hammer then complaining about the pain? Didn't think so!

If that's the way you feel about someone expalining people's rights to them that's fine, but you can't compare every doctor to yourself! I'm sure you're a great doctor, but not all are! Especially where I'm from, we have very few young open minded doctors coming through and most of the older ones who are left work within an outdated scope of research that does indeed put lives in danger! Things as simple as washing your hands between patients often get overlooked in this group. Coming from a small state the docs we train tend to get on the first plane out of there once they're qualified leaving the ones who are set in their ways behind!

So just because you act in one way it doesn't mean you can hold everyone in your chosen career to your standards, it's like saying everyone in a gym works just as hard as Ronnie Coleman, it's a gross generalisation that is incorrect and therefore I do see it as my responsibility as a "professional" to make sure the quacks get weeded out so those of your level of ability and sense of pride in there work are the ones who are left, survival of the most dedicated I guess you could call it!

John

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Post by Ironman » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:48 am

anandsr21 wrote:I would not want to waste away if modern science has no cure. I would like to try anything that gives me a hope. Without that hope death will come sooner.

I know its not perfect, but it has worked for my wife, without getting her into forever illness mode. The fact is that you will only appreciate alternative medicine if somebody near you has an illness that cannot be cured by the best available modern medicine. Then you will search for whatever may work, without regards to its safety. Because there is no safety.

I am not recommending it for problems for which there is a proper cure. I don't consider killing off your immune response as a cure. It is actually worse than the illness. It is bartering one problem with a host of others.

For me I tend to use homeopathy, because of its placebo like effects. Research has shown that placebo effects are quite powerful. If the problem can be cured with a placebo, then why take a medicine with its associated side effects. If the problem does not fix itself, then I take the real medicine ;-).
It sounds like you would try things that give you no hope as well. Here drink a cup of my piss it's magic. That's about how retarded this is.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:50 am

ballophun wrote:I'm in the same category as anandsr21's wife. When I started accupuncture and herbs, I thought it was pretty crazy. Laughably so. I'd lie there with pins in me after being told to 'meditate' thinking "what am I doing... I could be watching reruns of Happy Days..." The herbs were worse actually. Boiling water and leaves and bark and seeds down into the foulest thick potent mixture. Like some sort of witchcraft.
So I was extremely skepitcal about it, but then all Western medicine could offer was immune depressants which made me sick.

I don't even understand what my Chinese doctor did but he explained it as balancing the immune system and the kidney... or something...
It still sounds pretty crazy, and the method is even crazier, but it worked for me. And if it did work, it couldnt have been a placebo effect because I didn't believe in it.
There is no such things as balancing your immune system. It also has nothing to do with the kidney. You need a better BS detector.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:52 am

anandsr21 wrote:Actually there are two benefits of taking homeopathy, even when you know that it is just plain water. First if you are being forced by your family to do something about it, and you think the problem will be resolved by itself, homeopathy is a great way out. Other is that sometimes it does work ;-).

I tend to take homeopathy for anything that is a long term case, where long term modern medicine causes more problems than it solves. Case in point is digestive maladies. Actually there are a lot of restrictions with Homeopathy. The Modern practitioner will not tell you to refrain from anything while on a medicine for curing ulcers, while Homeopathy one will restrict those things that cause the ulcers. So end result is that even when homeopathy does not work directly the restrictions does cause the ulcers to get fixed. Otherwise it is difficult to convince the patient to avoid certain things. Somehow doctors are loath to restricting a diet, at least in India. It could be that they get more money the longer the patient visits them ;-).
Maybe in some other universe. In this universe that is impossible. Show me the research! Where is a proper study with control and variable groups?

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Post by Jungledoc » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:00 am

jeffrerr wrote:
Jungledoc wrote: Sheesh. There is no issue of "increased stomach acid." The stomach is extremely acidic under normal circumstances, and there isn't a food that can change that. The "acidic foods" are a drop in the bucked as far as the acid that is already produced in the stomach. The pathology is a change in the stomach's protection from the acid. Temporarily decreasing the production of acid with medicines while the ulcer is healing is an essential treatment method, but can't be accomplished with any diet restrictions.

So you are saying that, based on your own ignorance, you would advise someone to potentially destroy some doctor's career. I've been on the receiving end of that, and believe me, it's hell. And no, it wouldn't make a doctor think twice next time. They already think twice, three times, four times. They take extra precautions, run extra, sometimes unnecessary tests because there are health care "professionals" out there giving this kind of misguided advice to people.
So if you were giving someone an analgesic for a toe that had had a weigth dropped on it would you then be totally fine with them going out and hitting the toe with a hammer then complaining about the pain? Didn't think so!

If that's the way you feel about someone expalining people's rights to them that's fine, but you can't compare every doctor to yourself! I'm sure you're a great doctor, but not all are! Especially where I'm from, we have very few young open minded doctors coming through and most of the older ones who are left work within an outdated scope of research that does indeed put lives in danger! Things as simple as washing your hands between patients often get overlooked in this group. Coming from a small state the docs we train tend to get on the first plane out of there once they're qualified leaving the ones who are set in their ways behind!

So just because you act in one way it doesn't mean you can hold everyone in your chosen career to your standards, it's like saying everyone in a gym works just as hard as Ronnie Coleman, it's a gross generalisation that is incorrect and therefore I do see it as my responsibility as a "professional" to make sure the quacks get weeded out so those of your level of ability and sense of pride in there work are the ones who are left, survival of the most dedicated I guess you could call it!

John
What does the weight on the toe have to do with anything?

Ulcers are not caused by "excessive stomach acid".
Diet does not change "excessive stomach acid".
Diet does not cause, nor does restricting diet help, ulcers.

The point is still that you have limited knowledge, but assume that a doctor who does things differently than you think they should is "set in his ways" and should be sued. What you said you would do is not "explaining people's rights", it's assuming expertise about medical matters and advising them to file a law suit. It's tantamount to telling them that the doctor has done damage by not restricting their diet (tell me how a doctor does that anyway, I've rarely had a patient who actually followed my dietary advice) and that they deserve to be compensated for. Not restricting their diet does no damage.

Fortunately, if they do, you will not be the expert witness who is called to testify, and any qualified expert would testify that there is no reason to advise anyone with ulcers to restrict their diets. In fact, any plaintiff's lawyer considering filing the case would refuse after interviewing an expert or two.

That's my last post to this thread.
Last edited by Jungledoc on Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ironman » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:05 am

Jungledoc wrote:
jeffrerr wrote:As a western medicine nurse, if a doctor of a patient in my care did not restrict their diet when treating ulcers I would advise the patient to proceed with a malpractice suit! No doctor I have ever been to or worked with would be that dumb, maybe it's India or maybe it's Australian docs being on top of the issue as I don't know what happens in the US and UK or other developed countries!

And I do agree with the first part of your statement about homeopathy, that it can sometimes relieve stress from outside factors and therefore create a better healing environment in the body due to the decrease stress! Especially with stomach ulcers, as there has been anecdotal links between emotional and physical stress and over production of stomach enzymes which inflame stomach ulcers, however I've not seen any scientific evidence on it yet, not that I'm suggesting it's not out there, but that I just haven't read it if it is!

Anyway I see this like religion and my opinion of religion is that I don't believe in it for myself but I have no issue with those that choose religion! As long as they don't try to force it on me of course, but I don't think there are Accupunturist Witnesses who knock on the door and try to give you printed material on the topic, is there? :)
How would you have wanted the doctor to restrict the diet? Up until about 1980 everyone thought that diet had something to do with the cause of ulcers. It doesn't. Ulcers are an infectious disease caused by the bacterium heliobacter pylori. That was an Australian discovery, I'm surprised you don't know that.

Were you taught that giving legal advice is within the purview of the practice of nursing?
Well that explains a lot. A medical mystery that baffled my doctor back in the early 1990's. After stomach flew symptoms for a week, I started having ulcer symptoms that would not go away, despite prescription pepcid. The doctor was getting ready to have me drink that color stuff and scan my stomach when they started going away. I have never had an ulcer since.

Now that I hear that, I think I never had a stomach virus. I think I had that pylori thing all along.

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Post by anandsr21 » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:14 am

Maybe in some other universe. In this universe that is impossible. Show me the research! Where is a proper study with control and variable groups?
I guess I am from a different universe ;-). I am not a religious person, and that includes science ;-). Just an off-topic, I believe in this MOND theory, although most scientist find it blasphemy. I think that the mainstream can be wrong about somethings. Trying out new things when nothing known will work is sometimes the only way out.

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Post by ballophun » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:36 am

Well I looked up my form of nephrotic syndrome and it says
"an altered cell-mediated immunologic response with abnormal secretion of lymphokines by T cells is thought to reduce the production of anions in the glomerular basement membrane, thereby increasing the glomerular permeability to serum albumin through a reduction of electrostatic repulsion.[2] The loss of anionic charges is also thought to favor foot process fusion. With minimal change disease the kidney tissue appears normal under a light microscope, but shows podocyte foot process effacement under an electron microscope."

So it is really a matter of controlling the immune system's response. You need some sort of balance, only attainable after many years of meditation, drinking frog water, sticking needles in odd places, and staring directly into the sun for at least 3 hours day.

It's just the way it is.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:13 am

anandsr21 wrote:
Maybe in some other universe. In this universe that is impossible. Show me the research! Where is a proper study with control and variable groups?
I guess I am from a different universe ;-). I am not a religious person, and that includes science ;-). Just an off-topic, I believe in this MOND theory, although most scientist find it blasphemy. I think that the mainstream can be wrong about somethings. Trying out new things when nothing known will work is sometimes the only way out.
You are showing your ignorance again. In science there must be a hypothesis based on anecdotal evidence or some observation. Then it is tested in extensive experiments, then it is published in a paper for peer review. The peers have to able to duplicate it or they rip it to shreds. Then it gets to be a theory, which is more or less fact as science goes. The only science that has anything higher than theory is math. theory is to fact as 99.99999999999999999999999999999999 is to 100.

In your case you go from observation to fact all in one go. THAT is why nobody takes it seriously. If it is real then PROVE IT. You can't prove it because it is not real.

no proof = no existence.

You are a religious person. Your religion is alternative medicine. You have irrational faith in something with no proof. That is what religion is.

Science is NOT a religion. Science is based on fact. There is no faith. And when there is no proof, you don't blindly accept it. You just call shenanigans.

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Post by Ironman » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:28 am

I just happened to see this article about doctors giving placebos. THAT is why you think your snake oil is a magic cure all.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20081024/hl ... treatments


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