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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:57 am
by pdellorto
In my experience, grip is always the biggest limiter on snatch-grip deadlifts. It's a hard position to hold. You can use straps like Rik Blades suggested, or just accept that your grip will be the limiting factor and use the DLs to help bring it up.

Personally, I do the latter, but my sport is very grip-dependent. Your may not be, I don't know, I haven't played softball since I was a kid.

I think I need Neanderthal no more

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:29 am
by ApolytonGP
Am getting more and more upper back discomfort and hunched overness. Really don't feel much when I lift, but I wonder if somehow Smith squats or shoulder or glutes or forward lateral raises (most likely) is causing my issue.

Could also be some presbyopea and dirt on my glasses. Need to breakdown and get bifocals. Is slowing work down.

Bugs me to break and do a different routine. I love my "everyone hates it" 6 days/week split upper/lower machine/dumbells workout that keeps me safe and consistently grows my muscles. But it probably makes sense to figure out what's going on and take multiple steps to improve my posture.

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:25 pm
by caangelxox
TCO, have you ever done chin tucks? lie supine flat on the ground and tuck your chin keeping your head on the ground. hold for a few seconds, release, then do it again.

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:30 pm
by ApolytonGP
I think those would help me. Probably so would the whole Neandethal program.

I'm pretty sure that it is th lateral raises that are getting me. I do them heavy and non-ballistic and two arms at once. 2 sets of ten to parallel (v-shape). Then 2 sets of ten from par to overhead with a band. Rolled around on the foam roller today. helped some. but I wonder if I should be doing those raises.

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:58 pm
by caangelxox
I recommend to stop doing lateral raises and start this program ASAP if you want to see the results you want.

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:06 am
by KPj
I doubt it's the lateral raises. If you think so then drop them for a while and see what happens, you won't loose anything significant by dropping them for a while. With these kind of issues you can rarely if ever put it down to just one exercise. It's normally a combination of things.


Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:08 pm
by caangelxox
lateral raises do trigger the upper trapz though, can be a problem

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:57 am
by KPj
You won't find many upper body movements that DON'T trigger the upper traps to some degree. It's not a problem in itself.



Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:33 pm
by Harpoon
Hi, sorry to bump and old thread, but this is the largest discussion on this program I could find on Google.

I'm nearing the end of the first 4-week program, and after looking ahead to whats next in the second 4-week program, I would like to know (for purposes of finding a gym with the right equipment) .... what's next?

The authors are kind of vague here..."its up to you where you go from here"etc.... do I just continue to do the second 4-week program forever after that?? (i got no problem with that, although some of the exercises NNM has me doing has gotten me some smirks and comments from some of the guys)

Or do I incorporate them into my own routine? Some issues with that

1. Although I'm getting some idea of which muscles they're trying to wrok with these exercises, I'm not sure which exercises are OK to take out, and on what days I should add my own in...

2. Which workouts are "bad"? I'm guessing squats and deadlifts fv(k your lordosis even more, bench presses promote scapula protraction, etc... what else?

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:20 pm
by stuward ... 8-hg.hydra

This is what the actually said:
Well, it's been fun, but you're on your own now. Where you go from here is entirely up to you. You can either continue the trend we've sought to establish with positive daily postural habits and a balanced training approach, or you can go back to a life of slouching at your desk and training only what you can see in the mirror.

Hopefully, we've set the record straight: a few sets of lat pulldowns and leg curls simply won't cut it and will actually make the problems worse in many cases! For those of you who have stuck with the entire program, we encourage you to post some "before" and "after" photos to show the stubborn Neanderthals what they're missing!
This is the key point: ...continue the trend we've sought to establish with positive daily postural habits and a balanced training approach....

The program they've given you is the basic program to continue for life. You can adjust it as much as you need to. Maybe 4 day/week isn't best for your lifestyle. In that case, change it. That's actually a pretty good split for most people. Maybe you want to explore other lifts. maybe there are sports or other goals you want to pursue.

The basic program I usually recommend is based on the 6 basic movements, Squat, deadlift, horizontal and vertical push and pull. The 4 day upper/lower split works well with these by doing day 1: squat, day 2: horizontal upper, day 3: deadlift, day 4 vertical upper. The program as written is sort of that order now. The exercises in the program are roughly ordered by priority. That is, the most important exercises are first. If you did nothing but the A exercises you would still have a full workout. If you want to shorten the program, keep the A exercises or ones similar to them and rotate the others so you do them less frequently than every week.

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:08 pm
by Harpoon

but am i right to say that ie. squats are fundamentally bad for people with advanced lordosis? And thats why they replace them with, ie. "box squats"etc?

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:40 am
by Jungledoc
Harpoon wrote:ok

but am i right to say that ie. squats are fundamentally bad for people with advanced lordosis? And thats why they replace them with, ie. "box squats"etc?
Why would they be. It's been a while since I read NNM, but I don't remember anything there or in anything else of Cressey's that I've read that would support that. A strong back is a good thing. Squats and DLs strengthen your back.

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:30 am
by Harpoon
well, i figure i spend all of my upright day trying to control my lordosis, but when I do a deep squat or DB, at some point my back will have hyperlordosis/my ass will stick out, straining that posture and my lower back even more...

plus the negative portion of these lifts seems to hit the hip flexors and quads pretty hard, which we all agree are "overactive" in cavemen ?

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:57 pm
by robertscott
squats and deadlifts strengthen your posterior chain, which will corrrect anterior pelvic tilt, stop your ass sticking out so far and stop your lower back hurting (if that's an issue). As far as exercises go I doubt there's any others that are as useful at correcting poor lower body posture.

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:35 am
by KPj
Yeah - Lordosis isn't "bad" in itself. It's a movement we should all have the ability to do. It's only a problem when you're "stuck" in lordosis, due to shortened hip flexors pulling your pelvis out of alignment, which then leaves your glutes and abs largely out of the equation to help stabilise your spine. However, you need to train those glutes, and to do so, you need to flex THEN extend the hips. Also, in most lifting situations, "lordosis" is the safest position for your back to be in, because you're contracting the lumbar erectors to help buttress the forces placed on the spine.

Where squats and deadlifts become a problem with the caveman posture is when you don't do them properly. Therefore, be sure to drive the hips forward at the top of the movements.

Deadlifts in my view are especially good for crappy posture. If you're locking out the weight properly, then you're finishing in a standing tall position. Hips will be forward with glutes contracted (hump the bar), chest will be out, shoulders down and back, chin slightly tucked. You don't get much more bang for your buck in one movement. On top of that, holding heavy things in your hands (grip work) is great for your rotator cuff. Now, on the other hand, it's quite common for people to just grab the bar and "stand up" and finish with the shoulders still rounded forward and the hips still in APT because they haven't "humped the bar". Instead of getting the shoulders back and hips forward, they finish with an excessive arch in the lower back. This would "feed" the imbalance. Doing it properly will help to fix it, though.

In short, the devil's in the details....