Biceps Question

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Alfred
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Post by Alfred » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:15 pm

Stephen Johnson wrote:
Alfred wrote:Let's see what the most famous compound movements are:
-deadlift
-squat
-bench
-cleans
-overhead lifts
-different types of rows

Except for bench and overhead,none of these do much for arms, and the bench and overhead press won't touch the arm flexors. A few compound moves can take care of several large muscle groups at once but are not sufficient alone. Might,say,the bicep be a synergist in some row? I guess so,but so the lateral delt, or the traps can be synergists in overhead pressing but basing all of the lateral delt or trap development on that can be wishful.
For genetically average, non drug using lifters, the easiest way to get bigger arms is to get bigger overall. If the average person gains about 10 pounds of solid weight, he will most likely gain an inch on his arms. Gaining size using isolation exercises is much harder for most people than using compound movements. It can be done, but you'll find drug using bodybuilders for the most part doing it. For other people - especially those concerned with sports performance - it's a waste of time.

But to each his own.
Yes,I think they can gain size from gaining more triceps mass which makes up a lot of the arm,isolation is not strictly necessary there. Arm flexors are another story.
Bodybuilders pay lip service to the alleged overall anabolic effects of squats etc. but nobody in their right mind would really lay off a rep in hopes that they will actually grow anything other than their torso and legs,glutes by doing that.


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Ironman
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Post by Ironman » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:54 pm

Now I agree a regular bent over row doesn't work biceps. But a Yates row does because it is underhand and because of the way you pull it up.

Some people have trouble with biceps (like me) and need some curls at the end. I think in my case it is because my ulnaris capri does more elbow flexion than usual. If your forearms are big this could be the case for you too. That just means doing some barbell curls. You can also do dumbbell curls with your wrists bent back, which takes forearms out of the movement.

It can take some heavy weight and higher volume. But of course underhand chins are the best thing for it and they are great for your back too.

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Stephen Johnson
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Post by Stephen Johnson » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:47 am

Alfred wrote:Bodybuilders pay lip service to the alleged overall anabolic effects of squats etc.
Pro bodybuilders don't rely on squats or deadlifts for an anabolic edge, they use steroids instead. With steroids, any routine - even five or six way split routines - will build muscle.

Many pro bodybuilders don't squat much anyway - they build their legs with leg press and hack squat machines. Leg presses in particular develop the quads without bulking up the glutes.

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Post by mattk25 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:44 pm

I'll be honest, I've not been lifting very long so alot of the lingo used here is foreign language to me. LOL! Somone suggested I post what exactly I'm doing. This it the typical workout routine for me in a week.
Day 1- Shoulders and Chest: Normally do bench press, shoulder press, shrugs, rows.
Day 2- Biceps and Triceps: Normally do cable exercises for triceps, and dips. Biceps I do both cable, dumbbell and barbell exercises, normally curls. I also use a Preacher Curl Machine at my gym. I've been doing rope hammer curls, traditional curls and variations like seated curls and isometric curls.
Day 3- Rest
Day 4- Chest and Back: Pushups, Fly, Rows, Lat Pulldown.
Day 5- Rest
Day 6- Normally whatever I can get done based on how busy the gym is
Day 7- Rest

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Post by pdellorto » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:02 pm

That's not a terribly good routine. You're working out 4 days a week, but:

- Two days a week are chest days (chest and shoulders, chest and back)
- One day a week is arms
- One day is "whatever you can do"

I don't see any legs in there...

I'd recommend you take a look at the sticky in this forum of basic routines. Look at the beginner routines - you'll notice they all centered on heavy leg work (squats and deadlifts), free weights instead of machines, and tend to be full body workouts. Any of the ones there - Starting Strength, the Mahler routine, Westside for Skinny Bastards, etc. - would be a big improvement over a routine with an arms day and no legs day.

Don't worry, though, when I started my routine looked a lot more like your than it did like those...plenty of people have done the Guns Show workout but it's not the best way to get strong or big or healthy. Something like those basic routines would be.


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Post by mattk25 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:03 pm

pdellorto wrote:That's not a terribly good routine. You're working out 4 days a week, but:

- Two days a week are chest days (chest and shoulders, chest and back)
- One day a week is arms
- One day is "whatever you can do"

I don't see any legs in there...

I'd recommend you take a look at the sticky in this forum of basic routines. Look at the beginner routines - you'll notice they all centered on heavy leg work (squats and deadlifts), free weights instead of machines, and tend to be full body workouts. Any of the ones there - Starting Strength, the Mahler routine, Westside for Skinny Bastards, etc. - would be a big improvement over a routine with an arms day and no legs day.

Don't worry, though, when I started my routine looked a lot more like your than it did like those...plenty of people have done the Guns Show workout but it's not the best way to get strong or big or healthy. Something like those basic routines would be.
I hear what you're saying but that doesn't have anything to do with my original question. I was doing leg work a month or so ago but I quit because I felt like my legs were strong and upper body wasn't. At some point maybe I'll do it again, but I'm really more concerned with upperbody. I'd rather look the part. I'm not trying to be a massive body builder or anything, just have a nice body and legs aren't my problem. Thanks for the input by everyone on this thread so far! I appreciate it!
***Edit*** I would like to look at those routines though. Where exactly can I find them? Thanks!

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Post by MrWonderful » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:35 pm

mattk25 wrote:
pdellorto wrote:That's not a terribly good routine. You're working out 4 days a week, but:

- Two days a week are chest days (chest and shoulders, chest and back)
- One day a week is arms
- One day is "whatever you can do"

I don't see any legs in there...

I'd recommend you take a look at the sticky in this forum of basic routines. Look at the beginner routines - you'll notice they all centered on heavy leg work (squats and deadlifts), free weights instead of machines, and tend to be full body workouts. Any of the ones there - Starting Strength, the Mahler routine, Westside for Skinny Bastards, etc. - would be a big improvement over a routine with an arms day and no legs day.

Don't worry, though, when I started my routine looked a lot more like your than it did like those...plenty of people have done the Guns Show workout but it's not the best way to get strong or big or healthy. Something like those basic routines would be.
I hear what you're saying but that doesn't have anything to do with my original question. I was doing leg work a month or so ago but I quit because I felt like my legs were strong and upper body wasn't. At some point maybe I'll do it again, but I'm really more concerned with upperbody. I'd rather look the part. I'm not trying to be a massive body builder or anything, just have a nice body and legs aren't my problem. Thanks for the input by everyone on this thread so far! I appreciate it!
***Edit*** I would like to look at those routines though. Where exactly can I find them? Thanks!
But there is a flaw in your logic and Pete is trying to point it out to you. By not doing legs it's not like you will see anymore improvement in your upper body which seems to be your primary concern. If anything, research provided and quoted many times on this site, working on your lower body not only improves that particular part but your entire body i.e. your upper body. So by not doing lower body work you are hindering or at least not helping your upper body growth. Also, your workout looks like a probodybuilders workout which probably isn't the best for a novice and works for bodybuilders mostly because of "special" supplements.

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Post by mattk25 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:38 pm

The workouts I've been doing have come out of a Men's Health Total body guide I purchased earlier this year. I'm new to the site and to weight training in general so I had no idea that lower body work would also be a key to upper body. What exactly should I be doing then?

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Post by stuward » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:00 pm

http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3817

These are all good programs. Which one you chose depends on your immediate goals. It's important to train the whole body in basic fundamental movements. For example, deadlifts and squats do more for you that just build your legs. The carry over to real life strength is tremendous.

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Post by mattk25 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:11 pm

Good deal!! I'll check them out. Anything else you might recommend for me as far as which muscle groups I should work out together. For example I've been doing Biceps and Triceps one day, would it be better for me to do Biceps and something else or does stuff like that even matter? Thanks alot, I'm a total newbie on this stuff!

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Post by airhog » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:00 pm

mattk25 wrote:Good deal!! I'll check them out. Anything else you might recommend for me as far as which muscle groups I should work out together. For example I've been doing Biceps and Triceps one day, would it be better for me to do Biceps and something else or does stuff like that even matter? Thanks alot, I'm a total newbie on this stuff!

Personally, I prefer the full-body type workouts for a beginner, simply because you will work out all of the major muscles more frequently. You body has probably not yet reached a point where you need the amount of recovery that a split type routine provides, and with periodization techniques you can continue with a full body workout for some time

However, it you are deadset against doing a full body workout, you can either split by muscle group or by push/pull. Each method has its place, and supporters.

with the body part split there are an endless number of different ways you can split it up. However, with the push/pull split there are far less ways that you can split the workout up.

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Post by stuward » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:24 pm

Full body 3 times a week is a common approach to many of these programs. . You can throw in some arm work on Fridays without any ill affects.

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Post by Jungledoc » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:54 pm

mattk25 wrote:...or does stuff like that even matter?
Stuff like that doesn't matter. Once you committ to full-body, it doesn't matter at all. It'll be in the workout.

Build your legs, the rest will grow, too!

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Post by pdellorto » Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:18 pm

MrWonderful wrote:If anything, research provided and quoted many times on this site, working on your lower body not only improves that particular part but your entire body i.e. your upper body. So by not doing lower body work you are hindering or at least not helping your upper body growth.
Exactly.

You may succeed in getting the "lightbulb" effect - a big upper body with a skinny lower body...but the odds aren't really in your favor. It's much easier to build a big house on a big, strong foundation than on a small, weak one.

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Post by TimD » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:44 am

Matt25, I'm not going to beat a dead horse, I think you got the picture already. In the sticky we posted "A small collection of routines" you will find a link to DeFranco's West Side 4 skinny Bastards, WDB4SB. That can easily be done by a novice, and is more in tune with your personal goals than most of the others. The beginner's approach in that one has two upper body days, with =yes= some curls for the girls and some other isolation type stuff AFTER the main compound moves, and has a lower body day in there as well. Might want to give that a good look over, and ask PDell a lot of questions. He's been training with De Franco and can really help you out with that.
Tim


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