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Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:49 am
by mattk25
Great!! Thanks for all the input guys!

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:03 am
by pdellorto
TimD wrote:The beginner's approach in that one has two upper body days, with =yes= some curls for the girls and some other isolation type stuff AFTER the main compound moves, and has a lower body day in there as well.
Yeah, you sure do get to do curls. But they're always an accessory exercise, meant to get some extra balancing work in rather than an emphasis. I've never seen an "arms day" but I've seen days with only minimal accessory work (and no curls).

If you're really uninterested in athletic training, check out either the original WS4SB's 3-day version, or WS4SB3's "Washed Up Meathead" version. Both of them offer a lot of options and a good structure but don't have you jumping, squatting explosively, or worrying about extra ROM for sports strength.
TimD wrote:Might want to give that a good look over, and ask PDell a lot of questions. He's been training with De Franco and can really help you out with that.
I have and I can. I've been doing a two-day split centered on my MMA training and built to rehab my injuries. So my workout log won't be a perfect guide to the program. But I keep my eyes open at the gym and ask questions, so...

The "Ask Joe" section on the main website and the Q&A section on EliteFTS also have a lot of information about his workout philosophy.

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:10 am
by KPj
This is irrelevant...But, I find it really funny the stigma that curls have now.

Me and my training partner were talking about this. He's had a forearm injury and among other things, has been doing a lot of reverse curls.

It's actually difficult to take yourself seriously when doing them now. I often do exercises that I use 2kg (lightest) DB's, and struggle, and feel no shame whatsoever. It's not like i'm someone who cares what others in the gym think anyway - I lost my gym dignity the moment I started doing dynamic warm ups and foam rolling. But doing curls, I just feel like a lesser man. I feel like i've 'let the side down'. They've been so over used in mainstream gyms that you don't want to feel like "one of THEM", even if you are just doing them after all your big lifts.

It reminds me of a great, immediately likable song. You hear and you think "amazing!", then you hear it ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE YOU GO, and you grow to despise it... I think that's what's happened with curls.

KPj

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:51 pm
by pdellorto
KPj wrote:It's actually difficult to take yourself seriously when doing them now.
Very true. The problem is, like bench pressing, it's become one of the "standard" exercises. Often done by people who don't do anything except curl and bench. If they have a short time to workout, they'll drop benching that day.

They aren't a waste of time. Used properly, they're a useful exercise in a complete program. It's when they ARE the program that's the problem, and it's hard to convince people you're doing a complete program if you start off by asking about curls.


Oh, and one more for the OP - you probably can't curl that much weight anyway...I did 4 x 10 x 25# DB hammer curls on Monday at the gym (supersetted with tricep pushdowns). But the gigantic college kid who benches more than I deadlift was doing 40# DBs for 10s. Your biceps really can't handle a huge amount of weight with strict curls, so don't expect to see fast progress there. It's not a really heavy exercise, since the muscle is too small to handle that much weight on its own.

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:47 pm
by mattk25
pdellorto wrote:
Oh, and one more for the OP - you probably can't curl that much weight anyway...I did 4 x 10 x 25# DB hammer curls on Monday at the gym (supersetted with tricep pushdowns). But the gigantic college kid who benches more than I deadlift was doing 40# DBs for 10s. Your biceps really can't handle a huge amount of weight with strict curls, so don't expect to see fast progress there. It's not a really heavy exercise, since the muscle is too small to handle that much weight on its own.
Thanks, that's what I was really getting at. I just found it odd that I wasn't increasing weight in this area but every other exercise I have moved up significantly.

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:51 pm
by ninjackn
Ahh yes, the "curl monkeys"
... I do hope no one here gets that joke/reference.

Stupidity aside, If you want numbers based on some sort of standard then the 1RPM of curls based on other exercises 1RPM is

Dumbell Curl (single barbell)
21% Squat
27% Bench Press
15% Dead Lift

Hammer Curl (single barbell)
22% Squat
28.3% Bench Press
15.75% Dead lift

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:59 pm
by hoosegow
ninjackn wrote:Ahh yes, the "curl monkeys"
... I do hope no one here gets that joke/reference.
When I do curls, I usually do monkey curls. Does that make me a curl monkey?

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:07 pm
by TimD
hoosegow wrote:
ninjackn wrote:Ahh yes, the "curl monkeys"
... I do hope no one here gets that joke/reference.
When I do curls, I usually do monkey curls. Does that make me a curl monkey?
Yep
Tim

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:16 pm
by Jungledoc
I did a set of curls back in July. What does that make me?


Ok, ok. I'll ask--what are "monkey curls?"

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:31 am
by KPj
Jungledoc wrote:I did a set of curls back in July. What does that make me?


Ok, ok. I'll ask--what are "monkey curls?"
I don't know what monkey curls are. However. Intrigued, I 'YouTubed' it. I got the following Video. It makes sense that these would be called Monkey Curls, and i'm totally going to be doing them next upper body day. I mean, gunz day.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9w0IlQIlW6Q

BTW, Doc, if you do these, it's absoloutley necessary to take your top off first, or you won't get the desired effect.

KPj

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:47 am
by Jungledoc
Wow. Keeping your elbows in tight like that makes the pecs look bigger. I need that. I always lift shirtless. Just prefer it. And we don't have mirrors. I think mirrors would make me put my shirt back on. :lol:

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:15 am
by pdellorto
Ah, a "secrete exercise." Need a towel for those afterwards. Maybe a box of tissues.

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:59 am
by Stephen Johnson
Maybe because of reading this thread, at the conclusion of yesterday's full body workout I did three sets of barbell curls with more than my usual weight. My arms were already fried from pull ups and rows, so I wound up cheating on all three sets. When I woke up today, my biceps were slightly sore. But so was my lower back. I can easily imagine throwing out my lower back if I did cheat curls with real weight. :frown:

The monkey curls look interesting, though. And in that position, it must be hard to cheat. Maybe next workout - but I'll keep my shirt on! :lol:

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:36 pm
by mattk25
Ok so let me just summarize what you guys have said to make sure I'm understanding you.

I would be better off doing a full body workout to gain overall strength.

Exercises like pullups would be better for my biceps than say curls due to the compound movement of the pullups as opposed to isolating just one part of the arm.

Biceps being a small muscle group won't respond like larger ones say the chest and shoulders.

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:32 pm
by pdellorto
mattk25 wrote:I would be better off doing a full body workout to gain overall strength.
Yes.

Get stronger overall, and everything will improve.
mattk25 wrote:Exercises like pullups would be better for my biceps than say curls due to the compound movement of the pullups as opposed to isolating just one part of the arm.
More than that, your biceps are built to work together with your shoulders and back to pull on stuff. Chinups (a pullup with the hands facing you) will do that. Your biceps will get involved, and they'll also be asked to help lift a big load - your bodyweight.

It's also a bigger exercise - the more muscle mass involved in an exercise, the more your body has to compensate for it afterwards. In other words, do big heavy compound exercises and your body will respond by getting everything stronger.
mattk25 wrote:Biceps being a small muscle group won't respond like larger ones say the chest and shoulders.
Yeah. Your glutes and legs for example, have the most strength potential in your body. So your deadlift and squat will go up for a long time, and go up pretty quickly.
Your biceps have relatively little strength potential, so they'll get stronger in smaller increments...and the exercises that just use them (curls) will max out quicker and will stay relatively low.

And like was said earlier, you can still do curls and tricep pushdowns and such in a full-body workout. It's just they make good accessory lifts, to help things along, after you did the main stuff. That's why Tim pointed you to Westside for Skinny Bastards. It's aimed at athletes, so your main exercises are squats and bench pressing and pullups, but then you do accessory exercises later in the workout to help those along.